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Old 04-04-2008, 08:48 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Are the two mutually exclusive? I'm not saying that an investigation shouldn't be done into the girl's home life. What I am saying is that a poor home life (if that is the case, which no one here knows) is no justification for murder.
Actually, and sorry BVS!, it may not (I personally don't think it so) be a justification for/of murder, but gaols are full of people who were led on a path toward where they are today. Outside gaol there are billions of us who are where we are today because of where our path led us. Is it justification? I don't like to think so. I don't think justification can fairly be used in a murder case, and certainly not this one. So it's not justified, it's certainly not inevitable, but it surely is something which needs addressing. Do you have intractables in your country? I'm sure you do. I was recently looking through the histories/stories/case studies of some of our delightful 'tracs' and what happened to them over the courses of their lives. Largely speaking, you simply do not just 'end up' in a supermax. You don't just 'end up' killing someone under any circumstances unless it was an absolute accident. This girl did not accidentally kill her baby. She most certainly didn't just 'end up' killing the newborn either. I know you're not saying that, but an understanding of what led her to do this is incredibly important in any judgement on this as a criminal matter.
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Old 04-04-2008, 08:50 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
What I am saying is that a poor home life (if that is the case, which no one here knows) is no justification for murder.
So do you want to put the millstone around her neck or would you rather drop her off the cliff?
Would this satisfy you and settle the matter?
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:05 PM   #48
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Old 04-04-2008, 09:08 PM   #49
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Maybe we should flush the Bible down the toilet.





but would we see riots in the streets?
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:48 PM   #50
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Actually, and sorry BVS!, it may not (I personally don't think it so) be a justification for/of murder, but gaols are full of people who were led on a path toward where they are today.
Why do you apologize to me?
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Old 04-04-2008, 10:52 PM   #51
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Because you were building up a great case of there being no argument that any of this has ever been justified (and by people in this thread), and I kinda hinted that while there might not be justification, per se, there was certainly room for an understanding... Or something.
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Old 04-04-2008, 11:00 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Because you were building up a great case of there being no argument that any of this has ever been justified (and by people in this thread), and I kinda hinted that while there might not be justification, per se, there was certainly room for an understanding... Or something.
Ok, I gotcha...

But actually that was part of my point, and I apologize for not making that clear. I do think there is a clear distinction between justification and understanding... And I was hoping Nathan answered a few more questions because that's where I was driving at... Unfortunately he didn't so I never got to finish my thought process...
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Old 04-05-2008, 02:35 AM   #53
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OK, OK, someone help me out here, because I'm clearly missing something.

As far as I can tell from the article (and, mind you, reading comprehension isn't my strong suit), this girl CHOSE not to tell anyone about her pregnancy. CHOSE. She wasn't abandoned, she wasn't alone in this fucked up world, basically, we're just taking guesses at her situation based on the final product - flushing a baby down the toilet and killing it.

I think those rushing to make sense of this and attempting to give it context are missing the simple fact that the information given isn't enough to guess at what her home life may be or her mental state, since her parents weren't even mentioned and there weren't any reports from friends about her behavior prior to the incident. Furthermore, those wishing for her to be hung for this are also off-base for the same reasons. I can't believe you people were able to wring 4 pages of discussion out of that vague little article. As far as any of you know, she was just some irresponsible little girl who didn't want to get in trouble with her parents and also didn't want to get an abortion. I guess you could just claim it's common sense that she was mentally ill, abused, or neglected, but I'd like to have some actual evidence before jumping to conclusions.
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Old 04-05-2008, 02:41 AM   #54
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I think you'd find statistically that it is highly unlikely she is simply cold blooded and without regard for her actions. To automatically assume she is an ordinary and rational 14 year old is not really a logical conclusion.
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Old 04-05-2008, 02:53 AM   #55
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I didn't say she was. Otherwise I'd be on nathan1977's side in all this. I just think it's equally unfair to start waving the finger at her homelife/parents when we know nothing about it/them at all.

My guess is that she was a girl who led a relatively normal life but was likely imbalanced as it was, and did what she based did on fear and panic alone. I've known girls in this situation, and logic kind of goes out the window.
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Old 04-05-2008, 03:02 AM   #56
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I think years of research into what builds up to someone killing another shows anything but some ideal home life is a prevalent aspect of their background. I'm not sure what girls you are familiar with, but I do have to ask are they pregnant/post natal, teenagers to boot, and in circumstances which would likely lead them to flush a newborn down a toilet? I do think this goes beyond even a good understanding of teenagers in general, or even the scared and somewhat rash ones.
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Old 04-05-2008, 03:11 AM   #57
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Nope, I've honestly never known anyone rash enough to do that, even when pretty overwhelmed. I can't even picture a good reason for doing something like that. It's too awful.
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Old 04-05-2008, 03:30 AM   #58
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I can't imagine that anyone who goes through nine months of pregnancy not telling anyone at all and carefully concealing it, strolls off to school in the throes of labor as if everything's normal, then proceeds to head for a bathroom stall when she feels the baby coming down the birth canal is in their right state of mind. All of that is bizarre, self-destructive, and extremely risky behavior. If an adult woman living on her own did the same thing only minus harming the baby afterwards, I'd say the baby should be taken into protective custody immediately and the woman should be taken to a mental health professional immediately.
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