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Old 04-04-2008, 04:12 PM   #31
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Maybe we should flush the Bible down the toilet.



Quote:
"Those who lead children astray should be dropped off a cliff with a millstone around their neck." (Mark 9:42)
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:15 PM   #32
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Death is death, but you do realize our society has different categories of murder don't you?

Has one person said anything about this not being a crime?

Man you really read into things...
Hardly. Has anyone here even referred to this as a crime? When we refer to what happened as "death" as opposed to murder, when we equate whatever tragic upbringing this girl may (or may not) have had, it's pretty clear that this girl's problem is ours too.
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:17 PM   #33
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Originally posted by financeguy
Maybe we should flush the Bible down the toilet.

[q]"Those who lead children astray should be dropped off a cliff with a millstone around their neck." (Mark 9:42)[/q]

Talk about missing the point.
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:17 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Hardly. Has anyone here referred to this as a crime? When we refer to what happened as "death" as opposed to murder, when we equate whatever tragic upbringing this girl may (or may not) have had, it's pretty clear that this girl's problem is ours too.


what are you looking for here? are you just trying to further your suspicion that pro-choice people don't care about babies, not even born ones?
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Old 04-04-2008, 04:36 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Hardly. Has anyone here even referred to this as a crime?
Quote:
Originally posted by VintagePunk


Wouldn't it be in society's best interest to find out the root cause of this, and try to rehabilitate her to prevent her from performing another crime down the road?
So, again, do we simply lock up these girls and throw away the key, or will trying to look at causes perhaps prevent this in the future?
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:05 PM   #36
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I do feel badly for these 14 year old girls. Due to their actions of having sex at that age, they are looking for something in their lives but all in the wrong place. The end result is the baby...also at 14 you know by this age that killing something a baby, person, dog, cat etc. is wrong. In both cases the girls did have an alternative and I don't mean clinics or anything like that, all they had to do was leave the infants in the bathrooms.
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:13 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Hardly.
What

Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

Has anyone here even referred to this as a crime? When we refer to what happened as "death" as opposed to murder, when we equate whatever tragic upbringing this girl may (or may not) have had, it's pretty clear that this girl's problem is ours too.
So that's all you want, someone to refer to this as a crime? It's pretty implied, don't you think?
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:19 PM   #38
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Originally posted by Irvine511




what are you looking for here? are you just trying to further your suspicion that pro-choice people don't care about babies, not even born ones?
Wow. There's a straw man for you. I don't even think that, and would much less imply it, but whatever helps you keep your stereotype.

This is a cut and dried case of murder -- whatever the motivation -- but no one wants to refer to it as such. No one even wants to refer to it as a crime. The safer word is "tragedy," but tragedy implies something that couldn't be helped. The flushing of a living baby down a toilet certainly could. So what are we left to do? When murder is justifiable, we are pretty far down a slippery slope, don't you think?
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by VintagePunk




So, again, do we simply lock up these girls and throw away the key, or will trying to look at causes perhaps prevent this in the future?
Are the two mutually exclusive? I'm not saying that an investigation shouldn't be done into the girl's home life. What I am saying is that a poor home life (if that is the case, which no one here knows) is no justification for murder.
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:24 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

This is a cut and dried case of murder --
And like I asked before, you do realize society has different classifications of murder, don't you?

Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

The safer word is "tragedy," but tragedy implies something that couldn't be helped. The flushing of a living baby down a toilet certainly could. So what are we left to do? When murder is justifiable, we are pretty far down a slippery slope, don't you think?
How does "tragedy" imply something that couldn't be helped? Man talk about a stretch.
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:25 PM   #41
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Originally posted by nathan1977


is no justification for murder.


And not one person has stated otherwise, so why keep bringing it up?
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:27 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by VintagePunk


Maybe this girl has had an "utter lack of humanity" inflicted upon her throughout her short life, and that's the only sort of behaviour she knows.

I think that's part of the overall point, and what everyone else is saying as far as I can tell. The point is to get to the root causes of such a tragic situation so that it won't happen, as much as that is possible within our human intelligence and emotional capabilities. Of course what was done to that baby is horrific beyond words, but what good is it ever going to do to focus on that alone? She's a 14 year old girl and I'd prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt that she is a reasonably decent human being caught in a situation that she could not even begin to contend with- or she would never do such a thing. Fourteen year olds shouldn't be having sex, at all, ever in my personal view-but they do so we must deal with that.

It's not an excuse, it's an attempt to place it in a context that can possibly lead to some understanding, discussion, and prevention. It IS our problem, so that's why we have to do that.

It breaks my heart that that 14 year old girl seemingly had no one to turn to in that situation, and I hardly think that makes me some sort of monster who doesn't care about that baby. I care about that baby very much and that breaks my heart just as much. Who is saying it is justifiable? That's a leap from trying to understand her whole situation that might have led to this, as a means to prevent it and as our social responsibility. Maybe she had a great family life and great communication with her parents and just decided to do that anyway as an out for her situation-but I would think not. Possible but not as probable.
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:37 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Wow. There's a straw man for you. I don't even think that, and would much less imply it, but whatever helps you keep your stereotype.



you'd fail to say what it is you really want from all this, so what else was there to assume?


Quote:
This is a cut and dried case of murder -- whatever the motivation -- but no one wants to refer to it as such. No one even wants to refer to it as a crime. The safer word is "tragedy," but tragedy implies something that couldn't be helped. The flushing of a living baby down a toilet certainly could. So what are we left to do? When murder is justifiable, we are pretty far down a slippery slope, don't you think?

who on earth is justifying this? who on earth is saying this *isn't* a crime?

you're like Tim Russert berating Obama about Louis Farakkhan. do you condemn? do you condemn and repudiate? do you condemn and repudiate and distance yourself?

what more do you want?
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Old 04-04-2008, 05:46 PM   #44
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It IS our problem, so that's why we have to do that.


i think this gets to the heart of the matter.

i don't think this girl murdered her baby in cold blood in the way that, say, Susan Smith drowned her kids in the bathtub (or was she the one with the lake?) this doesn't seem like a psychotic episode, this doesn't seem like she got angry at the baby and shook it really hard like that British Nanny. it doesn't seem like she ran up to a random baby in a stroller and took it out and bashed it's head out on the sidewalk.

i feel like i have some measure of responsibility to the girl. i feel like she's been failed on so many levels, and it's the baby who has suffered for it. yes, i do see two victims here, though only one murderer.

if this girl had contraception or felt as if she were able to make choices -- abortion, adoption, whatever -- this situation could have been easily avoided.

her age has much to do with it. as we've discussed in here, the vast majority of the tiny percentage of abortions that are late term abortions are usually done when a baby develops debilitating birth defects, or when the mother is very young and has been in denial about the pregnancy.

this is something that needs to be understood in order to prevent. anger and outrage aren't going to go very far to address the situation.
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Old 04-04-2008, 06:08 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Has anyone here even referred to this as a crime?
What I said was, "these girls must be made to take responsibility for their actions."

Of course it was a crime.

But it is not a crime to have compassion for a fourteen year old girl who has obviously fallen through the cracks.
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