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Old 09-27-2006, 10:19 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


And this is the difference between those who believe and those who don't.

Those who believe don't require proof, and those who require proof won't believe.
That is true.
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Old 09-27-2006, 10:22 AM   #62
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
If it were ever proved that Jesus was just a man, but a man with great ideals, would your view change much? Ie, no immaculate conception, no son of God, no rising from the dead, etc.
Well, it won't be proven, but if it ever were, you bet that would change my view. There are plenty of wise men in this world. I don't worship any of them. If Christ were just a man, I wouldn't worship him.
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Old 09-27-2006, 10:29 AM   #63
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Well, it won't be proven, but if it ever were, you bet that would change my view. There are plenty of wise men in this world. I don't worship any of them. If Christ were just a man, I wouldn't worship him.


are you worshipping Christ the man, or Christ as the embodiment of the divine?

let's say that he were totally human -- no immacuate conception, no rising from the dead -- but he got the ideas right, that his ideas about God/life/death/how to live/who we are/why we are here/etc.

would that be worthy of worship? not the man, but what the man represented?
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Old 09-27-2006, 10:41 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




are you worshipping Christ the man, or Christ as the embodiment of the divine?

let's say that he were totally human -- no immacuate conception, no rising from the dead -- but he got the ideas right, that his ideas about God/life/death/how to live/who we are/why we are here/etc.

would that be worthy of worship? not the man, but what the man represented?
I'm worshipping Christ, the embodiment of God.

Bono is a great person, who helps an untold number of people. I don't worship the lindness or the ideas that Bono represent. But I do worship the one whom Bono represents; the person whom Bono represents is Jesus.
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Old 09-27-2006, 10:53 AM   #65
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I'm worshipping Christ, the embodiment of God.

Bono is a great person, who helps an untold number of people. I don't worship the lindness or the ideas that Bono represent. But I do worship the one whom Bono represents; the person whom Bono represents is Jesus.


but what if he weren't the embodiment of God, but he got the whole cosmic order of the universe right? i'm posing a hypothetical here.

i don't think that bono thinks he represents jesus, though. i think he tries to live up to certain standards, but as a representative of jesus ... not so sure.
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Old 09-27-2006, 11:03 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but what if he weren't the embodiment of God, but he got the whole cosmic order of the universe right? i'm posing a hypothetical here.
I don't really know how to answer that except to say that I worship the trinity, and the trinity alone. No good men or good ideas are worthy of worship.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i don't think that bono thinks he represents jesus, though. i think he tries to live up to certain standards, but as a representative of jesus ... not so sure.
The Bible teaches that all Christians are representatives of Christ. This is mainly because the Holy Spirit lives in us. Whether I am a good representative or a poor representative is up to me and my choice of whether to let the Holy Spirit work through me or to live for myself and by my own power.
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Old 09-27-2006, 11:55 AM   #67
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Old 09-27-2006, 12:06 PM   #68
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You know guys, I don't think this is at all the discussion edgeboy intended to start.
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Old 09-27-2006, 12:57 PM   #69
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edgeboy started a thread about his conversion to Judaism and it's morphed into this.
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Old 09-27-2006, 11:22 PM   #70
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threads evolve and shoot off on tangents more often than not in fym. they dont need closing or merging or splitting. you'll give yourself and everyone else a migraine if you try and keep a reign on them. like conversations in real life, they're somewhat organic. it seems a few of us are enjoying this. i find it particularly interesting due to my vehement dispassion for christianity, but some odd interest in judaism.

it's all just learning, isn't it.
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:07 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
threads evolve and shoot off on tangents more often than not in fym. they dont need closing or merging or splitting. you'll give yourself and everyone else a migraine if you try and keep a reign on them. like conversations in real life, they're somewhat organic. it seems a few of us are enjoying this. i find it particularly interesting due to my vehement dispassion for christianity, but some odd interest in judaism.

it's all just learning, isn't it.
Yolland didn't say anything about closing or merging or splitting this thread. We know that thread sometimes become a bit derailed from their original topic, and she was merely reminding people what the original topic was. I saw it as more of a nudge of encouragement to perhaps get back on topic and, if you wish to continue discussing other things further, perhaps beginning a new thread just to keep everything organized.
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Old 09-28-2006, 10:32 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


And this is the difference between those who believe and those who don't.

Those who believe don't require proof, and those who require proof won't believe.
Technically, I think this is true. But I often find something else at work. I'd be really interested to find out if there are people who do not believe who have the attitude of "Wow, I would love to believe. It sounds great, it sounds wonderful. I'd jump at it in a second, but. . .there's no proof, so unfortunately, I just can't." It may be out there but I haven't yet encountered it.

What I do see is that coupled with unbelief is the sense that belief (i.e. God, religion etc, whatever) is a horrible thing that holds zero appeal to the unbeliever. Which leads me to believe that it's not just a dispassionate acceptance that "the evidence isn't there" but a more passionate aversion to faith. And as I said before as I listen to those who do not believe describe what they understand God and faith to be about, I can't really blame them for not believing.

I would also add that believers do have proof of a sort (though not in the scientific sense)--the proof of their own experiences. While that may be invalid from a strictly scientific point of view, scientific proof is not the be all and end all. After all, there's no scientific proof that I love my wife or aspire to be writer either. Those things are all personal, subjective experiences and yet they're pretty damn important to my life. My faith is the same way. At the end of my life the things that are scientifically provable (with the exception of my life and death itself) will probably carry a lot less weight than the impossible-to-quantify aspects of life like the relationships I've had, the joy I've experienced and so on.

Perhaps Tom Petty was right when he sang that "You believe what you want to believe."

So I might rephrase the quote this way: "Those who believe do not require scientific proof as a basis for belief. Those who require scientific proof are not really interested in believing anyway and are happy to let the absence of scientific proof stand as an obstacle to belief."

But maybe I'm wrong. I'd be glad to hear about it.

Sorry, Yolland. I tried to think of a way to tie it back to Judaism but I couldn't. Let me try this: Perhaps the same dynamic is at work in abandoning one relgious faith for another rather than for unbelief. It's not so much that the old faith didn't work as it didn't work for us. How's that?
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:13 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

but what if he weren't the embodiment of God, but he got the whole cosmic order of the universe right? i'm posing a hypothetical here.
I can't say it better than C. S. Lewis, so here are his words:

Quote:
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic ‑on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg‑ or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the son of God: or else a madman or something worse.

Then Lewis adds:

You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:26 AM   #74
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Quote:
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I can't say it better than C. S. Lewis, so here are his words:



yes, i understand that, and it is a good point, but we only have as record what other people have said that Jesus said. there were no tape recorders back then. no camcorders. we do not have transcripts.

so, it's more accurate to say that the bible says that jesus said that he was the son of god, end of story. and not "jesus said that ..."
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:47 AM   #75
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I can't say it better than C. S. Lewis, so here are his words:

Ah, Mere Christianity. . .great book.
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