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Old 06-29-2006, 04:27 PM   #91
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
I don't think this is that unusual and I'm kind of surprised that it's something you haven't heard of in the gay community, Irvine.


i'm sure it happens, but i have not heard of it firsthand. but i'm young and probably naive to some things -- so who knows?

i hope your friend is okay.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:36 PM   #92
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I do think it's possible for a woman who has been raped by her boyfriend or husband to consent "after the fact" because the feelings are so confusing in those situations (vs. being raped by a stranger) and it's kind of like in abusive relationshps when the man beats up his wife then says he's sorry and he loves her and she forgives him.
If I'm not mistaken, saying a woman consented after the fact is saying a rape did not occur.

Acceptence and forgiveness after the fact does not change the nature of the rape when it occured just as it doesn't change the fact that the beating occured.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:40 PM   #93
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really?

i guess i don't/didn't see that as i guess i view date rape (as opposed to the jump-out-of-the-bushes-at-knifepoint/gang rape Yolland described) as something that really can't be compared to straight up violence. not that one is better or worse than the other, they are just different and would likewise engender differing responses.

but i'm not a woman.
I actually hate the term "date rape" for this reason--that it actually gives the impression of being a less violent act.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:41 PM   #94
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If I'm not mistaken, saying a woman consented after the fact is saying a rape did not occur.

Acceptence and forgiveness after the fact does not change the nature of the rape when it occured just as it doesn't change the fact that the beating occured.
I'm just saying that because it happened within the context of an established relationship that the woman's feelings may be very confused. You and I may clearly see that a rape occurred; she may not.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:54 PM   #95
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Originally posted by Irvine511
as you said, this would be a situation where i could imagine myself, and i'd view myself as more the victim of a violent crime than as someone who submitted to an undesired penetration.
Don't want to draw out this tangent too much more, but could you briefly elaborate on what that distinction means to you, and whether you think sexual orientation is relevant to it?

I remember on another occasion a different guy saying--with reference to the idea that women have to live perpetually with this constant, if subtle, level of fear and vigilance about rape--that "well, that's really no different than what a small guy goes through, worrying about maybe getting beaten up." I thought this was bullshit, and part of the reason I thought so was having heard this friend of mine talk about being raped. He said something like--and this is almost verbatim--"I would ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times rather they'd just beat me to an absolute fucking pulp instead. Or just killed me." Which I took to mean that he definitely felt sexually humiliated specifically by that incident, and considered this much worse than the humiliation of not having been Tough Enough to fight off a mob.

(p.s. And he is doing very well, at least careerwise, today.)
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sort of a Stockholm Syndrome?
Well that's an interesting comparison, but *I think* SS is really more about identifying with your "captors" and their cause, whereas I'm thinking more along the lines of some seriously-messed-up mutual-ego-gratification thing, where at some (probably sudden?) point and through some (probably 100% non-rational?) process, what's actually happening gets emotionally re-contextualized as [e.g.] eroticism (the "excitement" of eliciting uncontrollable "desire") or "tenderness" (the intimacy of meeting another person's "deepest" "needs").

But...I really have nothing to go on besides imagination here...so, this could all be total bullshit.
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:06 PM   #96
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I actually hate the term "date rape" for this reason--that it actually gives the impression of being a less violent act.


is it a less violent act?

speaking for myself, i'd find the violence in the knife-to-my-throat situation and not as much in the unwanted penetration situation.

i suppose i would say that when i hear the word "rape," i immediately think of a news headline -- someone was "beaten, raped, and murdered." that a rapist waits in the bushes and leaps out and snatches women walking alone at night.

i know this isn't the case, but when i hear "rape" that's what i think of, which is why i think that what is known as "date rape" almost needs a different word in order to distinguish it from the aforementioned scenario.

i suppose i see two different situations, but others may not.
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:07 PM   #97
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Originally posted by AliEnvy


If I'm not mistaken, saying a woman consented after the fact is saying a rape did not occur.

and this is what i've been trying to get at.
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:10 PM   #98
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Originally posted by yolland

Don't want to draw out this tangent too much more, but could you briefly elaborate on what that distinction means to you, and whether you think sexual orientation is relevant to it?


very provocative questions -- perhaps tonight, got stuff to finish up before the editors get here, and these questions require thoughtful responses.
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:12 PM   #99
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Originally posted by yolland

whereas I'm thinking more along the lines of some seriously-messed-up mutual-ego-gratification thing, where at some (probably sudden?) point and through some (probably 100% non-rational?) process, what's actually happening gets emotionally re-contextualized as [e.g.] eroticism (the "excitement" of eliciting uncontrollable "desire") or "tenderness" (the intimacy of meeting another person's "deepest" "needs").
This is what I just don't buy into as a possibility. The moment you go from feeling safe to feeling threatened and out of control and are being violated in the most personal and profound way would trigger a fear response and maybe an adrenaline rush but certainly not erotic excitement and tenderness (which may be what a woman imagines in a fantasy).
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:20 PM   #100
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Originally posted by Irvine511


speaking for myself, i'd find the violence in the knife-to-my-throat situation and not as much in the unwanted penetration situation.

i suppose i would say that when i hear the word "rape," i immediately think of a news headline -- someone was "beaten, raped, and murdered." that a rapist waits in the bushes and leaps out and snatches women walking alone at night.

i know this isn't the case, but when i hear "rape" that's what i think of, which is why i think that what is known as "date rape" almost needs a different word in order to distinguish it from the aforementioned scenario.

i suppose i see two different situations, but others may not.
Wow, we really see this one differently because when I hear the word rape, I also think of fathers sneaking into their daughter's beds, priests cornering boys, women being drugged and sexually assaulted, a woman saying goodnight to her date only to be raped at gunpoint instead. To me, they are all violent experiences. I see being robbed at knifepoint, for example, as a less violent experience than being raped by a guy I went to dinner with.
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:25 PM   #101
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and this is what i've been trying to get at.
I know you don't intend the idea to come across this way, but your notion of consent after the fact suggests that women in intimate situations don't know what consent is or how to communicate it properly and has the faint air of blaming the victim.
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Old 06-29-2006, 05:57 PM   #102
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
This is what I just don't buy into as a possibility. The moment you go from feeling safe to feeling threatened and out of control and are being violated in the most personal and profound way would trigger a fear response and maybe an adrenaline rush but certainly not erotic excitement and tenderness (which may be what a woman imagines in a fantasy).
Fair enough, like I said, I'm just speculating based on imagination and nothing more here. I do agree though with BVS that something resembling an emotional outcome like this really does happen in some relationships because like him I've personally heard people recount it, though not be able to articulate precisely what the process is--that's the part that's mysterious to me. I should probably qualify that 1) as I tried to suggest with all the quote marks, I didn't mean that the emotions named would be experienced the same way as they would be in, to use your word, "safe" situations, nor as they would be in fantasy; and 2) certainly, I don't think this should have any bearing on "consent" one way or the other--I think of "consenting" to a process as something that necessarily happens at the beginning of it; you might perhaps reaffirm consent at some point during it, but it doesn't make sense to me to say that you could suddenly, yet meaningfully, "consent" in full to a process you've been being unwillingly subjected to all along, halfway through it.
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Old 06-29-2006, 06:29 PM   #103
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I know you don't intend the idea to come across this way, but your notion of consent after the fact suggests that women in intimate situations don't know what consent is or how to communicate it properly and has the faint air of blaming the victim.


eh ... i can understand your point, but i also don't think that all women are as helpless and preyed upon as you (probably unintentionally) paint them to be. it has nothing to do with blaming the victim and more to do with the fact that the victim might be able to see a much more complex situation than a simple yes/no dichotomy.
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Old 06-29-2006, 08:07 PM   #104
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I haven't painted anyone as helpless and preyed upon. It's interesting that you even suggest that I have.

There is NOTHING complex about being forced into sex against your will. Otherwise the victim WOULD have a measure of accountability, yes?
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Old 06-29-2006, 08:15 PM   #105
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Wow, we really see this one differently because when I hear the word rape, I also think of fathers sneaking into their daughter's beds, priests cornering boys, women being drugged and sexually assaulted, a woman saying goodnight to her date only to be raped at gunpoint instead. To me, they are all violent experiences. I see being robbed at knifepoint, for example, as a less violent experience than being raped by a guy I went to dinner with.


that's interesting ... i wonder if you have a more nuanced view of rape due to gender? as i've said, this isn't something i spend a whole lot of time thinking about, and i hope people can appreciate that i'm doing my thinking by writing.

i suppose i am drawing a distinction between the rape-at-knifepoint (as opposed to a robbing-at-gunpoint, which is something i *do* worry about living where i live) and the "date rape scenario" is that i associate rape with a strong threat of violence and malice, and i don't see the strong violence and malice in the date rape scenario. i see other things, i see misogyny, i see domination, i see arrogance, i see violation, i see psychological trauma, but i don't see the intent to do grevious harm as in the knifepoint scenario. i see intent to get one's way, i see intent to prove manliness at the expense of someone else, but i don't see intent to destroy the other person (even though forms of destruction might occur in the aftermath).

is that a fair distinction? they may all be forms of violence, but i think to different degrees, and i think the intent of the perpetrator might matter here.

or does it? i'm really not sure, i have no answers, i'm just asking questions and thinking out loud.

i guess i see one as directly related to sex, and the other as a means of imposing grevious bodily harm in a particularly psychologically nasty form.

i also think that this is directly related to my experiences. firstly, as a gay man, i fear violence (particularly getting bashed) and though i haven't picked up anyone in a long time (and have always thought that to be a particularly risky activity) i wouldn't fear unwanted sex so much as i would fear being beaten and robbed or murdered. perhaps that's a bad assumption on my part, and perhaps i'm putting too much faith in my own physicality, but that is my honest initial reaction.

the second thing that sticks in my mind are the college experiences i've alluded to. again, none of this happened directly to me, but i can think of two distinct examples where women who i know and adore felt as if they were raped, and as much as it hurts me to say this, i really didn't agree with them based on the information i had. it really seemed like, to me, a case of women who drank too much and did something they regretted.

and i felt terribly for feeling that way, and offered them as much support as they wanted, but deep down, that was my honest conclusion.

so it seemed like they had sex that they regretted, sex that they might not have had if they had been sober, but i don't think i can see that as rape, exactly, because i have to think that part of rape (as AliE has said) has to do with the intent of the perpetrator, and knowing one (but not both) of the guys involved in these two situations, i can 100% vouch for his character -- perhaps i am wrong, but i would vouch for him in a court of law without a second thought.

where situations like those lead us to are silly laws like in the state where i went to college -- if a woman has a single drink, she is legally unable to give consent. that strikes me as tremendously sexist, and one of the themes of my posts (i hope) has been that i believe in the sexual freedom and sexual complexity of women. i think women should be free to have sex with no guilt or shame. i think women should be able to drink as much as they want and make good or bad decisions. i want women to be empowered to do whatever they want with their bodies, so long as they are responsible for their actions -- please, because i can sense this coming already, don't throw at me any hoary cliches about women asking to be raped or anything. it's very clear to me in these situations (moving away from the "Rescue Me" scenario, which is different from what i'm discussing in this post) that no means no, that sex can stop at any point, and that consent kicks off any sexual experience.

i guess i don't want there to be different rules for men and women, as i see that as sexist, but perhaps there needs to be -- as was explained to me in one of the several rape prevention classes i went to in college, the man has "the weapon."

so maybe biology does matter?
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