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Old 06-29-2006, 03:15 PM   #76
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Originally posted by maycocksean

if we accept that this a question only women can answer, that all the women we've talked to say that, no. . .consent cannot be given after the fact. They've also said, forceful sex okay. Forced sex = rape, so forced sex is never okay.


has anyone yet said that consent cannot be given after the fact? if so, i missed it. also, no correct answer, just looking for an answer.

but i wonder -- if it is a question that only a woman can answer, why can't she change her mind after the fact?

i'm not saying that would ever happen, but theoretically, could it?
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:19 PM   #77
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Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
If men still believe that women really have rape fantasies, they need to get some help for that. Speaking for myself, a woman might have a fantasy about some guy she's really attracted to wanting her as much as she wants him, but in a loving, non-violent context. It's the desire that we desire. Wanting a guy to want you like that is not wanting to be raped. Perhaps men who think that way really have the fantasy of raping a woman, and they project it onto her somehow. Yes some people are into some types of violent sex, but that is still consensual and mutual and the consent is clear-or else it's certainly rape in my eyes.


i think this is true for the vast majority of women, but i think it's entirely possible for a woman to have a rape fantasy but not want to be actually raped. one situation is role play (and in these role plays, the submissive person actually has the power because they are calling the shots ... and, of course, it is all consented to) and the other situation is a straight up crime.

i think women should be entitled to have any sorts of fantasies they want. whether they want only married missionary sex or wild and crazy sex with leather and toys and superhero costumes where they call each other "daddy" and/or "mommy" or a fantasy rape scenario, it's all fine. we all have the rights to any sexual fantasies we want, and we have the right (within the constraints of the law ... obviously, there are some fantasies that are illegal or harmful for various reasons) to pursue the fulfillment of these fantasies as we see fit.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:22 PM   #78
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I think the bottom line is that the majority of men can physically dominate the majority of women. That inequality engenders so much fear. Nothing would ever be funny or innocuous to me about a guy even making unwelcome and unwanted advances like touching, etc. because the physical fear is always there. And because that in itself is a violation, at the very least of my space and my dignity.

You can't just talk a guy out of something on a date and/or in a date rape type situation or make yourself clear-that's just not realistic or really all that fair to expect women to do in my opinion. And of course there's the issue of drinking and roofies and all that.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:26 PM   #79
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Well rape fantasy to me means wanting a guy to rape you and fantasizing about that, which equals fantasizing about non-consensual sex-violent, semi-violent, forced in a physical way, etc. I've never met or known any woman who has told me she fantasizes about men in that way. A strong desire that is passionate and hot in that way, yes. But the woman is still in her portion of the control and it is mutually wanted in that sort of scenario.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:29 PM   #80
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Maybe what's commonly called a rape fantasy revolves around sexual fantasies of being submissive and giving in to sexual desire since women still aren't really expected to be sexually assertive and all the double standard BS. I would compare that more to the no means yes scenario and in the realm of fantasy, the woman feels completely safe and in control of what is happening in her fantasy...the opposite of how that same woman would feel if she were raped for real.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:34 PM   #81
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
the woman feels completely safe and in control of what is happening in her fantasy...the opposite of how that same woman would feel if she were raped for real.


and herein lies the best teased-out distinction we've yet had, i think -- it really is in the mind of the woman (in this situation).

so she gets to call the shots, she gets to determine whether it is or isn't rape, yes?

so where does that leave men? does this put a potentially unfair burden of proof on them? do we always automatically believe a woman?
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:36 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i really find this whole thing interesting because i feel like i'm in the position of someone who could be raped, but would could also be accused of being a rapist, and i honestly can't imagine myself at all in either situation (whereas most women i know can easily imagine themselves a rape victim) so i'm just trying to understand it better.
...................................
the last thing i wonder is that if part of the power of rape comes not from forced penetration, not from genetalia used to commit a crime, but to certain dynamics that exist between men and women that wouldn't necessarily apply to same sex couples. perhaps it's the combination of opposite-sex interactions, combined with (on average) greater male strength and his possession of "the weapon" that turns rape into a multi-layered violation on a physical, emotional, and psychic level, and that it's ultimately much more than simply an unwanted penetration.
Have you ever known a man who considered himself to have been raped? I just ask because I had a (male) friend in grad school who had been. Admittedly what happened to him was way outside this "gray area" category, because he'd been gang-raped by a group of complete strangers in the parking lot of a bar. So, I'm not certain how fully or even whether it's relevant here. But for sure, it was very clear to me from hearing him talk about it that being a man, in and of itself, had NOT made him immune to all those feelings of profound humiliation, suppressed rage, deep shame, etc. that we'd more commonly associate with raped women. It was almost 10 years since it happened, but he still regarded it as being by far the most traumatic experience of his life, and was still haunted and badly messed up by it in all sorts of ways.

I should probably add that he was straight, and therefore most unlikely to have ever had any sort of "rape fantasy" involving other men--though frankly, I find it hard to believe that a gay man would've found such a situation anything but horribly traumatic, either. I can imagine--actually, I think I might even have read somewhere--an argument that Well, gay men's sexuality is much less bound up with needing to be "The Man," sexually speaking, and that makes it different, etc.; but I'm wary of this line of thinking because it seems like by the same logic, straight women shouldn't really get all that worked up about the odd "forced penetration" here and there, because after all isn't their sexuality all bound up with that Object-of-the-Gaze, longing-to-inspire-uncontrollable-lust kind of stuff. Sure, underlying social messages (e.g., women who "let" men take advantage of them are "dishonored") do affect the whole equation; I'm not denying that. But I also suspect that everyone, regardless of sex or orientation, has certain irreducible core needs for control over who "uses" their bodies sexually and how, psychological boundaries that can't be violated without taking a toll.

I'd be interested to know more about to what extent rape is considered an "issue" within the gay community, though.

Overall, and at least with reference to straight couples, I think I feel most sympathetic to maycocksean's point--that while it may happen sometimes that an initially wholly unwelcome sexual encounter later gives rise to arousal or even "tender" feelings (maybe even especially in longterm-but-highly-dysfunctional relationships?), nonetheless, whatever emotional "resolution" it is that occurs there really does need to be held somewhat suspect, and we really do need to consider whether it might in the end take a high toll on the woman's psychological health (and for that matter, the man's too, IMO). I don't think we can assume that the emotional dynamics involved there are necessarily similar to those that might make consensual rough sex or S/M roleplaying erotic. And the same goes for date rape, really--it just seems like it's ultimately in everyone's best interests to regard nonconsensuality as unacceptable from the get-go; it's not as if you're missing something you couldn't experience less riskily (and more healthily) the consensual way.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:39 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Nothing would ever be funny or innocuous to me about a guy even making unwelcome and unwanted advances like touching, etc. because the physical fear is always there.


another interesting difference.

there are very few men who i would feel physically intimidated by, and i could have knocked this little troll to the floor in a second. so that's why i found it funny -- there was no fear.

i can see how this is different in a heterosexual context. i really can.

of course men can rape men (in fact, i believe Greg Lougains was a rape victim), but i when i envision it i see it in the context of a broader violent act with a knife or a gun or something, i can't see what i imagine to be a more typical heterosexual date rape scenario where a man sort of forces himself upon a woman and simply doesn't stop.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:40 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
has anyone yet said that consent cannot be given after the fact? if so, i missed it. also, no correct answer, just looking for an answer.

but i wonder -- if it is a question that only a woman can answer, why can't she change her mind after the fact?

i'm not saying that would ever happen, but theoretically, could it?
I'm not sure what you mean by consent after the fact.

Are you suggesting that after experiencing rape a woman might say, well ok, maybe I did want sex afterall, it's all good, what he did is fine.

That sounds eerily like the wheels of trauma and denial to me.

Are there women who feel guilty and slutty after casual, consensual sex who have the same wheels of trauma and denial moving in the opposite direction? No doubt.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:43 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
Maybe what's commonly called a rape fantasy revolves around sexual fantasies of being submissive and giving in to sexual desire since women still aren't really expected to be sexually assertive and all the double standard BS. I would compare that more to the no means yes scenario and in the realm of fantasy, the woman feels completely safe and in control of what is happening in her fantasy...the opposite of how that same woman would feel if she were raped for real.
I think this is, in fact, more or less the prevalent theory about the psychological function "rape fantasies" serve--they allow the "experience" of being pursued and desired uncontrollably (the stuff of fairytales, right?...) without the real-world "downsides" (horrible word choice, sorry) of being overpowered, humiliated, "subjected," "used," etc.

We need VintagePunk in here....
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:49 PM   #86
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Originally posted by yolland
[B]
Have you ever known a man who considered himself to have been raped? I just ask because I had a (male) friend in grad school who had been. Admittedly what happened to him was way outside this "gray area" category, because he'd been gang-raped by a group of complete strangers in the parking lot of a bar. So, I'm not certain how fully or even whether it's relevant here. But for sure, it was very clear to me from hearing him talk about it that being a man, in and of itself, had NOT made him immune to all those feelings of profound humiliation, suppressed rage, deep shame, etc. that we'd more commonly associate with raped women. It was almost 10 years since it happened, but he still regarded it as being by far the most traumatic experience of his life, and was still haunted and badly messed up by it in all sorts of ways.

as you said, this would be a situation where i could imagine myself, and i'd view myself as more the victim of a violent crime than as someone who submitted to an undesired penetration. it seems like there's no ambiguity here, so i'm not entirely sure how relevant it is to the various scenarios we've been discussing in this thread, as you noted. and, yes, i'm sure i'd be as thoroughly traumatized as he is.

and it sounds utterly horrible. and i am very sad for your friend and i hope he has recovered as best as can be expected.



[q]I'd be interested to know more about to what extent rape is considered an "issue" within the gay community, though.[/q]

it's not something i've ever dealt with, nor is it something that i've ever heard of, to be honest. i know several female victims of rape, but i can honestly say that i don't know (know of, more accurately) any gay male victims of rape. perhaps this is because the physical equality of the two men removes the possibility of one being able to successfully make the other physically submit, or perhaps more men would be less inclined to put up a fight -- in these date rape scenarios, not in the gang-bang parking lot scenario you mentioned -- and simply acquiesce and get it over with.

perhaps i'll have a different perspective in 10 years, but for now, it's really not an issue that i'm aware of. the biggest issues, of course, are the fear of HIV infection and of being bashed.



Quote:
Overall, and at least with reference to straight couples, I think I feel most sympathetic to maycocksean's point--that while it may happen sometimes that an initially wholly unwelcome sexual encounter later gives rise to arousal or even "tender" feelings (maybe even especially in longterm-but-highly-dysfunctional relationships?), nonetheless, whatever emotional "resolution" it is that occurs there really does need to be held somewhat suspect, and we really do need to consider whether it might in the end take a high toll on the woman's psychological health (and for that matter, the man's too, IMO).

sort of a Stockholm Syndrome?

perhaps "Rescue Me" was getting at this?

(gosh, now i really have to see this episode ... )
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:51 PM   #87
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
[B]Are you suggesting that after experiencing rape a woman might say, well ok, maybe I did want sex afterall, it's all good, what he did is fine.

yes, this is what i'm saying. this is what seemed to happen on the show. i don't think this is typical, i don't think this is healthy, but i do think it is possible.


[q]That sounds eerily like the wheels of trauma and denial to me.[/q]

perhaps -- but can't we let women make their own decisions and understand their own feelings? i suppose i'm also suspicious of trying to steer someone's reaction in a certain way.


Quote:
Are there women who feel guilty and slutty after casual, consensual sex who have the same wheels of trauma and denial moving in the opposite direction? No doubt.
and this is what i feel happened between my two friends. i really do. and i feel sorry for them both.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:11 PM   #88
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but can't we let women make their own decisions and understand their own feelings? i suppose i'm also suspicious of trying to steer someone's reaction in a certain way.
I come back to my battered wife tale...she makes her own decisions and understands her own feelings (however unhealthy and twisted)...but it doesn't in any way shape or form excuse, condone or justify the beatings OR suggest that she enjoyed the beatings.

A woman who has been raped making an excuse retrospectively about wanting sex as a form of denial is comparable to a women who says to herself after being pushed down the stairs, I burnt the potroast so I sure did have that coming to me.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:18 PM   #89
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Originally posted by Irvine511



as you said, this would be a situation where i could imagine myself, and i'd view myself as more the victim of a violent crime than as someone who submitted to an undesired penetration. it seems like there's no ambiguity here, so i'm not entirely sure how relevant it is to the various scenarios we've been discussing in this thread, as you noted. and, yes, i'm sure i'd be as thoroughly traumatized as he is.

and it sounds utterly horrible. and i am very sad for your friend and i hope he has recovered as best as can be expected.
I have a gay friend who was raped and was deeply traumatized by the experience. He picked up this guy in a bar with the intention of having a one night stand. But once they got back to the guy's place, it turned ugly. The guy overpowered my friend and violently penetrated him against his will. It was painful and horrible. The guy then wouldn't give him his keys so he ended up running down the street and banging on doors for help. So here was a situation in which the original intent was fun, casual, sex, but then he realized the guy was a psychopath. Yes, that's the risk you take when you pick up strangers but it didn't make it less painful. I don't think this is that unusual and I'm kind of surprised that it's something you haven't heard of in the gay community, Irvine.

That said, I do get some of your points. I haven't seen the show so I can't comment. In The History of Violence it was clear to me that it was consensual. I do think it's possible for a woman who has been raped by her boyfriend or husband to consent "after the fact" because the feelings are so confusing in those situations (vs. being raped by a stranger) and it's kind of like in abusive relationshps when the man beats up his wife then says he's sorry and he loves her and she forgives him.
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Old 06-29-2006, 04:20 PM   #90
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
A woman who has been raped making an excuse retrospectively about wanting sex as a form of denial is comparable to a women who says to herself after being pushed down the stairs, I burnt the potroast so I sure did have that coming to me.

really?

i guess i don't/didn't see that as i guess i view date rape (as opposed to the jump-out-of-the-bushes-at-knifepoint/gang rape Yolland described) as something that really can't be compared to straight up violence. not that one is better or worse than the other, they are just different and would likewise engender differing responses.

but i'm not a woman.
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