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Old 06-29-2006, 12:37 PM   #61
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


We're not redefining anything.

I'm just trying to acknowledge that there are unhealthy relationships out there that may not exactly be black and white.

You admitted that you couldn't say yes or no if the scene in History of Violence was concentual or not. So obviously there is gray, that's all I'm saying.
How is rape not black and white?

I can't say my opinion on the scene because it was a long time ago, late at night, and I didn't pay much attention to that scene since it kinda weirded me out. If I have to say right now, I'd say no, that was not rape.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:43 PM   #62
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Has the actress in the scene had any comments about it? Has she explained how she felt about the scene? Was she trying to convey something in it?
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:52 PM   #63
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


How is rape not black and white?

I didn't say rape isn't black and white, I said consent may not be black and white. There is a difference.

What if someone was in a very volatile relationship and had many sexual encounters similar to the one in History. It was common to get into very violent fights that turned into very forceable sex. She later on resolves these issues that allowed her to be so submissive and decides the sex wasn't consentual? Can she claim rape?

I guess my point is that what was consentual in that relationship wouldn't be considered consentual in a healthy relationship.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:59 PM   #64
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Originally posted by AliEnvy
Do you think a woman can possibly enjoy sex that is forced on her against her will? Under what circumstances? Why?

Is it possible that a man who is bi-curious who is raped against his will might decide during the act, hey so this is pretty good after all....


yes, to both of these questions.

it can happen, and probably does, but it is not common.

ultimately, the perpetrator should have stopped at the moment the woman or man in the above situations said no, or better, he should have sought consent first (but then again, i don't think i've ever expressly sought permission, it all sort of happens, or doesn't happen as it should).

but the question is what if after the fact the victim isn't unhappy with the situation -- and i don't think we can simply say that all women (or men) are simply in denial. i think sexuality is a complex thing, and right now we're talking about very uncommon, almost theoretical situations.

in a broad sense, of course i agree with LivLuv and AliE.

but i also don't think that one scene in one TV show is going to turn men into rapists. i really don't.

i am also struck by the reaction in an earlier thread started by A_W about how rape statistics have plummeted (by 85%!) over the past 30 years, while the availability of porn has gone up. now, i think it was a mistake to correlate the two, (all that it might show is that porn does not make men rape), but i also think that we have to look at this as good news. yes, rape is underreported, but i would bet that a much higher percentage of rapes are reported now than 30 years ago, and still the numbers are dropping (it's kind of like with HIV where diagnoses is going up but actual infection rates are down, the reason is because more people get tested) i think society has progressed a tremendous amount and i think women are more sexually empowered than ever -- to say no, to say yes, to say whatever they want and to have complex sexual and emotional lives.

anyway, i think the biggest determinant is consent. any behavior is fine, so long as it is consented to.

i think the question the scene (as we understand it) raises is this: can consent be given after the fact?
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Old 06-29-2006, 01:13 PM   #65
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Originally posted by Irvine511

yes, to both of these questions.

it can happen, and probably does, but it is not common.
Under what circumstances and why do you think it happens?

Along the same lines, do you think there are some women who enjoy being beaten by their boyfriends or husbands?
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Old 06-29-2006, 01:28 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


Under what circumstances and why do you think it happens?

Along the same lines, do you think there are some women who enjoy being beaten by their boyfriends or husbands?


i'm not sure this is an answerable question as it would come down to an individual's psycho-sexual make up -- probably people who enjoy being submissive, enjoy being subdued, enjoy physical tension and aggression in their relationships.

can you consent to forced sex? (this would be different to unwanted sex, i think)

i think one thing we're missing is that in any of these situations consent is implied -- one partner knows the other wants to be dominated, controlled, subdued, made to submit, etc. i suppose the question is whether or not consent to forced sex was a part of the relationship on the show.

i don't think the beating question is applicable. as i've said, i think sexual desire is very complex, and i don't see the parallels between beating someone versus a sexual interaction. i do think, however, that some people do enjoy violence in sex -- some people want to be slapped, smacked, punched, and put in uncomfortable positions because this is pleasurable to them (whereas i think you'd have a hard time finding anyone who would consent to a full-on physical beating).

again, the issue comes down to not what physical acts occur, but to consent to the physical acts that occur, which leads me back to my initial question: can consent be given after the act?
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:36 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
can you consent to forced sex? (this would be different to unwanted sex, i think)
Consenting (however it is implied and mutually understood) to forceful sex is not rape and being forced to submit to unwanted sex (rape) is not enjoyable...in any context.

[q]
i don't think the beating question is applicable. as i've said, i think sexual desire is very complex, and i don't see the parallels between beating someone versus a sexual interaction.[/q]

I was comparing a beating to rape, not a sexual interaction. Do you see the parallels between a beating and rape?
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:41 PM   #68
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I suspect what we may be looking at here is some fundamental differences between how men and women approach sexuality, and also looking at the impact the power disparities between men and women in the wider world affect how we relate to sex.

The experience of rape, I think, is very hard for men to relate to. The closest I can come as heterosexual male is to imagining between raped by another man, and that would be absolutely horrifying and humiliating and just devastating to me. But I think that comes more from the fact that I'm not attracted to men sexually. There's no "good" parallell for me in the sense that there IS no "good version" of sex with a man for me. (That's why I think your perspective, Irvine, as a gay man is useful for you, because you do have that parallell). I know it's theoretically possible for a man to be raped by a woman, but obviously it's very rare for many reasons. One of those is simply physiological--for a guy to "do" anything or have anything "done" he's kinda got to be in to it. If I'm hating every moment of something that's going on, could I still even manage an erection? (Sorry to be so graphic everyone) I feel like I wouldn't be able to. But I don't know. . .

I guess my point is this, men have to take women at their word about what constitutes rape because it would seem we don't have much in our own experience to relate to this with. I don't think we, as men, can answer the question Irvine asked: Is it possible for consent to happen after the fact? Women must answer this question and it would appear based on the replies of the women in this forum, no it cannot. It can "appear" that way, perhaps. But inside, the truth, is "No, I hated this." Unwanted sex is going to leave a woman feeling shitty regardless of how she "acts" on the outside.

There is such a thing as violent consensual sex, I think. And I believe that seeing such sex scenes would be uncomfortable for people who don't like this kind of sexaul behavior. But the key is, it is consensual, both enjoy what is happening. (It wasn't so graphic, and it was kind of cartoonish, but I think of a scene in Mr. and Mrs. Smith). I think such people are rare (whether it is "unhealthy" or not is up for debate) but it would seem most women are not open to violent consensual sex.

The problem we're having here is that we're referencing two scenes in film/tv that most of us have either not seen or forgotten, so making judgements about what happened there is almost a moot point.

I do think this discussion is very important though. Since there appears to be such a gap in understanding it is crucial that we communicate as men and women so that we can understand.
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:46 PM   #69
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^ Thank you. I've been trying to think of an example to illuminate this issue but from a male perspective, and I can't. Of course, I don't think you, or I, am saying that men can't comment on it or have an opinion, but it's very difficult for me to even understand a question like "can you consent to forced sex?" It's either consensual, or it's forced. I can't fathom why any woman would decide that she enjoyed being "raped".
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:50 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Has the actress in the scene had any comments about it? Has she explained how she felt about the scene? Was she trying to convey something in it?
Yes, she does. It's in the DVD commentary. Maria Bello said it was difficult to do (took about two days apparently) but it sounds like more because it was very demanding physically (apparently she got pretty bruised up). Her explanation is--and you kind of have to remember the context of the whole film for this--that her character, who at first is is horrified by this "other person" her husband has turned out to be--essentially, a gangster, is finding that actually she is attracted to it. That this "bad guy" perhaps was there all along and she was attracted to that side of him too. Something like that. I'm probably not doing justice to what she said. She said the scene was meant to contrast with the other sex scene earlier before we find out this guy's "secret past." She also said clearly that the sex was consensual, in her mind. She's the one that pointed out the pause where he stops, and then she makes it continue.

To be honest, to make any judgements about either scene in Resuce Me or History, in all fairness, it's important to take the time to watch the scenes.

Though I think the larger questions are worthwhile to discuss as I said in my last post. I just don't think it's really fair to discuss them in the context of scenes we haven't seen.
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Old 06-29-2006, 02:53 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


Consenting (however it is implied and mutually understood) to forceful sex is not rape and being forced to submit to unwanted sex (rape) is not enjoyable...in any context.



okay. i'd agree, so how can we assume, then, that the scene in "Rescue Me" was indeed rape? could it have been a mutual understanding of consent, as understood by the lack of negative reaction by the woman at the end of the scene? could it be that what we saw was *forced* sex (not forceful) that was ultimately desired?

and you still haven't answered the question as to whether or not consent can be given after the fact.

i am truly curious about this



Quote:
I was comparing a beating to rape, not a sexual interaction. Do you see the parallels between a beating and rape?

well, we haven't even defined, totally, what rape vs. forced sex vs. forceful sex is, nor have we defined when consent must take place in order for rape to have or have not occurred, so it's rather hard to compare what we have been talking about -- a murky area apparently explored on this show, and also in our conjecture in this thread -- versus what we all understand as clearly rape.

i can see some paralles between a beating and a rape, in a broad sense, but i don't see the parallels you're trying to draw between a beating and a rape. i do think, however, they are different crimes and take a different toll on the one who is raped versus the one who is beaten.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:01 PM   #72
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I need a drink
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:06 PM   #73
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Originally posted by Irvine511



and you still haven't answered the question as to whether or not consent can be given after the fact.




well, we haven't even defined, totally, what rape vs. forced sex vs. forceful sex is, nor have we defined when consent must take place in order for rape to have or have not occurred
I think we may have found the answer to both questions, though Irvine, based on the responses we've received so far. It would seem, if we accept that this a question only women can answer, that all the women we've talked to say that, no. . .consent cannot be given after the fact. They've also said, forceful sex okay. Forced sex = rape, so forced sex is never okay.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:08 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy
The people who made the show don't even agree on what the scene means (Tolan says rape, Leary says no rape) so my tummy tells me they just messed it up and some of the audience is left thinking (or having their assumptions reinforced) that some women secretly enjoy rape.
Bingo, I think that's dead on. They'll cover their behinds somehow.

And as for the rest-well disfunctional relationship or not, just the description of the scene sounds like rape to me (fighting back like that indicates non-consent in my eyes), and some people also still don't think rape can happen when people are married or even in a relationship. That is an important point to be made-the cnn clip discusses spousal rape. I would have to watch it again but I believe the report said something like 30 % or more of women report instances of non-consensual sex in their marriages. That number could be wrong, my memory is foggy about the number.

If men still believe that women really have rape fantasies, they need to get some help for that. Speaking for myself, a woman might have a fantasy about some guy she's really attracted to wanting her as much as she wants him, but in a loving, non-violent context. It's the desire that we desire. Wanting a guy to want you like that is not wanting to be raped. Perhaps men who think that way really have the fantasy of raping a woman, and they project it onto her somehow. Yes some people are into some types of violent sex, but that is still consensual and mutual and the consent is clear-or else it's certainly rape in my eyes.

It's just scary to me to think of any men/teenage boys watching that show and that scene and thinking along the lines of "gee it's true, they do really want it even if they fight it and you and punch you until you're bleeding" That is quite dangerous.
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Old 06-29-2006, 03:12 PM   #75
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
but it's very difficult for me to even understand a question like "can you consent to forced sex?" It's either consensual, or it's forced. I can't fathom why any woman would decide that she enjoyed being "raped".


how is it hard to understand? if forced sex is consented to, the person is basically asking his/her partner to physically coerce them into having sex with them, and it is the act of physical coercion that is as erotic as the act itself. this can go anywhere from the "bodice-ripping" we've all heard of (the man tears her clothes off) to something we'd all probably be much more uncomfortable watching, but we can't truly judge unless we are in the shoes of the participants. i think it is possible to consent to someone forcing you to have sex ... though i think we're getting hung up on terminology, for if it is consented, then one could just as easily say "stop" or whatever safe word has been agreed upon -- note, the idea of a "safe word" implies that words like "no" or "stop" might be part of the role play -- and then the other person would stop.

i agree that most people wouldn't find any of this a turn-on. but some do.

i also want to add that i'm finding this all very interesting in an intellectual way, and that we are talking about very isolated examples. i think the vast majority of rape cases are clear cut, but i do think that teasing out the nuances of sexuality and desire is interesting and illuminating.

as for myself ... again, i find it hard to imagine myself in a "date rape" situation. i can imagine someone jumping out of the bushes and commiting an act of physical violence that involved penetration. but that, to me, is a violent act, the penetration seems secondary. in these "date rape" scenarios where two people are by choice intimate but one doesn't want to actually have intercourse and the other does, i suppose i can't see myself not being able to make myself clear and understood or to physically restrain someone if i needed to. but i am a big, strong guy. perhaps therein lies some of the difference?

i went on a date once, and all went well until he got fairly drunk, and we were at a gay bar and he started groping me and feeling me up in the middle of the floor. i found it funny. i kept thinking of lines to say, like, "i'm not that kind of girl!" or something like that. but i wasn't terribly upset, it was sort of an eyeroll situation. he kept wanting to take me out to his parked car and mess around and things like that, and i sort of brushed it off and let him continue to touch me because it didn't bother me that much -- i was more concerned that people would think this little troll was going to take me home rather than about where his hands were going. does that make sense?

however, if this had been a heterosexual situation, i think it would have engendered a much more angered reaction from your typical female.

why? what are the differences in the genders that make us react differently?




(am really hoping i won't regret posting this ... i really do mean it all for the sake of discussion)
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