Controversy Surrounding Rescue Me Episode

[Irvine511]

I don't think this is that unusual and I'm kind of surprised that it's something you haven't heard of in the gay community, Irvine.

i'm sure it happens, but i have not heard of it firsthand. but i'm young and probably naive to some things -- so who knows?

i hope your friend is okay.

 

[AliEnvy]

I do think it's possible for a woman who has been raped by her boyfriend or husband to consent "after the fact" because the feelings are so confusing in those situations (vs. being raped by a stranger) and it's kind of like in abusive relationshps when the man beats up his wife then says he's sorry and he loves her and she forgives him.

If I'm not mistaken, saying a woman consented after the fact is saying a rape did not occur.

Acceptence and forgiveness after the fact does not change the nature of the rape when it occured just as it doesn't change the fact that the beating occured.

 

[joyfulgirl]

really?

i guess i don't/didn't see that as i guess i view date rape (as opposed to the jump-out-of-the-bushes-at-knifepoint/gang rape Yolland described) as something that really can't be compared to straight up violence. not that one is better or worse than the other, they are just different and would likewise engender differing responses.

but i'm not a woman.

I actually hate the term "date rape" for this reason--that it actually gives the impression of being a less violent act.

 

[joyfulgirl]

If I'm not mistaken, saying a woman consented after the fact is saying a rape did not occur.

Acceptence and forgiveness after the fact does not change the nature of the rape when it occured just as it doesn't change the fact that the beating occured.

I'm just saying that because it happened within the context of an established relationship that the woman's feelings may be very confused. You and I may clearly see that a rape occurred; she may not.

 

[yolland]

as you said, this would be a situation where i could imagine myself, and i'd view myself as more the victim of a violent crime than as someone who submitted to an undesired penetration.

Don't want to draw out this tangent too much more, but could you briefly elaborate on what that distinction means to you, and whether you think sexual orientation is relevant to it?

I remember on another occasion a different guy saying--with reference to the idea that women have to live perpetually with this constant, if subtle, level of fear and vigilance about rape--that "well, that's really no different than what a small guy goes through, worrying about maybe getting beaten up." I thought this was bullshit, and part of the reason I thought so was having heard this friend of mine talk about being raped. He said something like--and this is almost verbatim--"I would ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times rather they'd just beat me to an absolute fucking pulp instead. Or just killed me." Which I took to mean that he definitely felt sexually humiliated specifically by that incident, and considered this much worse than the humiliation of not having been Tough Enough to fight off a mob.

(p.s. And he is doing very well, at least careerwise, today.)

sort of a Stockholm Syndrome?

Well that's an interesting comparison, but *I think* SS is really more about identifying with your "captors" and their cause, whereas I'm thinking more along the lines of some seriously-messed-up mutual-ego-gratification thing, where at some (probably sudden?) point and through some (probably 100% non-rational?) process, what's actually happening gets emotionally re-contextualized as [e.g.] eroticism (the "excitement" of eliciting uncontrollable "desire") or "tenderness" (the intimacy of meeting another person's "deepest" "needs").

But...I really have nothing to go on besides imagination here...so, this could all be total bullshit.

 

[Irvine511]

I actually hate the term "date rape" for this reason--that it actually gives the impression of being a less violent act.

is it a less violent act?

speaking for myself, i'd find the violence in the knife-to-my-throat situation and not as much in the unwanted penetration situation.

i suppose i would say that when i hear the word "rape," i immediately think of a news headline -- someone was "beaten, raped, and murdered." that a rapist waits in the bushes and leaps out and snatches women walking alone at night.

i know this isn't the case, but when i hear "rape" that's what i think of, which is why i think that what is known as "date rape" almost needs a different word in order to distinguish it from the aforementioned scenario.

i suppose i see two different situations, but others may not.

 

[Irvine511]

If I'm not mistaken, saying a woman consented after the fact is saying a rape did not occur.

and this is what i've been trying to get at.

 

[Irvine511]

Don't want to draw out this tangent too much more, but could you briefly elaborate on what that distinction means to you, and whether you think sexual orientation is relevant to it?

very provocative questions -- perhaps tonight, got stuff to finish up before the editors get here, and these questions require thoughtful responses.

 

[AliEnvy]

whereas I'm thinking more along the lines of some seriously-messed-up mutual-ego-gratification thing, where at some (probably sudden?) point and through some (probably 100% non-rational?) process, what's actually happening gets emotionally re-contextualized as [e.g.] eroticism (the "excitement" of eliciting uncontrollable "desire") or "tenderness" (the intimacy of meeting another person's "deepest" "needs").

This is what I just don't buy into as a possibility. The moment you go from feeling safe to feeling threatened and out of control and are being violated in the most personal and profound way would trigger a fear response and maybe an adrenaline rush but certainly not erotic excitement and tenderness (which may be what a woman imagines in a fantasy).

 

[joyfulgirl]

speaking for myself, i'd find the violence in the knife-to-my-throat situation and not as much in the unwanted penetration situation.

i suppose i would say that when i hear the word "rape," i immediately think of a news headline -- someone was "beaten, raped, and murdered." that a rapist waits in the bushes and leaps out and snatches women walking alone at night.

i know this isn't the case, but when i hear "rape" that's what i think of, which is why i think that what is known as "date rape" almost needs a different word in order to distinguish it from the aforementioned scenario.

i suppose i see two different situations, but others may not.

Wow, we really see this one differently because when I hear the word rape, I also think of fathers sneaking into their daughter's beds, priests cornering boys, women being drugged and sexually assaulted, a woman saying goodnight to her date only to be raped at gunpoint instead. To me, they are all violent experiences. I see being robbed at knifepoint, for example, as a less violent experience than being raped by a guy I went to dinner with.

 

[AliEnvy]

and this is what i've been trying to get at.

I know you don't intend the idea to come across this way, but your notion of consent after the fact suggests that women in intimate situations don't know what consent is or how to communicate it properly and has the faint air of blaming the victim.

 

[yolland]

This is what I just don't buy into as a possibility. The moment you go from feeling safe to feeling threatened and out of control and are being violated in the most personal and profound way would trigger a fear response and maybe an adrenaline rush but certainly not erotic excitement and tenderness (which may be what a woman imagines in a fantasy).

Fair enough, like I said, I'm just speculating based on imagination and nothing more here. I do agree though with BVS that something resembling an emotional outcome like this really does happen in some relationships because like him I've personally heard people recount it, though not be able to articulate precisely what the process is--that's the part that's mysterious to me. I should probably qualify that 1) as I tried to suggest with all the quote marks, I didn't mean that the emotions named would be experienced the same way as they would be in, to use your word, "safe" situations, nor as they would be in fantasy; and 2) certainly, I don't think this should have any bearing on "consent" one way or the other--I think of "consenting" to a process as something that necessarily happens at the beginning of it; you might perhaps reaffirm consent at some point during it, but it doesn't make sense to me to say that you could suddenly, yet meaningfully, "consent" in full to a process you've been being unwillingly subjected to all along, halfway through it.

 

[Irvine511]

I know you don't intend the idea to come across this way, but your notion of consent after the fact suggests that women in intimate situations don't know what consent is or how to communicate it properly and has the faint air of blaming the victim.

eh ... i can understand your point, but i also don't think that all women are as helpless and preyed upon as you (probably unintentionally) paint them to be. it has nothing to do with blaming the victim and more to do with the fact that the victim might be able to see a much more complex situation than a simple yes/no dichotomy.

 

[AliEnvy]

I haven't painted anyone as helpless and preyed upon. It's interesting that you even suggest that I have.

There is NOTHING complex about being forced into sex against your will. Otherwise the victim WOULD have a measure of accountability, yes?

 

[Irvine511]

Wow, we really see this one differently because when I hear the word rape, I also think of fathers sneaking into their daughter's beds, priests cornering boys, women being drugged and sexually assaulted, a woman saying goodnight to her date only to be raped at gunpoint instead. To me, they are all violent experiences. I see being robbed at knifepoint, for example, as a less violent experience than being raped by a guy I went to dinner with.

that's interesting ... i wonder if you have a more nuanced view of rape due to gender? as i've said, this isn't something i spend a whole lot of time thinking about, and i hope people can appreciate that i'm doing my thinking by writing.

i suppose i am drawing a distinction between the rape-at-knifepoint (as opposed to a robbing-at-gunpoint, which is something i *do* worry about living where i live) and the "date rape scenario" is that i associate rape with a strong threat of violence and malice, and i don't see the strong violence and malice in the date rape scenario. i see other things, i see misogyny, i see domination, i see arrogance, i see violation, i see psychological trauma, but i don't see the intent to do grevious harm as in the knifepoint scenario. i see intent to get one's way, i see intent to prove manliness at the expense of someone else, but i don't see intent to destroy the other person (even though forms of destruction might occur in the aftermath).

is that a fair distinction? they may all be forms of violence, but i think to different degrees, and i think the intent of the perpetrator might matter here.

or does it? i'm really not sure, i have no answers, i'm just asking questions and thinking out loud.

i guess i see one as directly related to sex, and the other as a means of imposing grevious bodily harm in a particularly psychologically nasty form.

i also think that this is directly related to my experiences. firstly, as a gay man, i fear violence (particularly getting bashed) and though i haven't picked up anyone in a long time (and have always thought that to be a particularly risky activity) i wouldn't fear unwanted sex so much as i would fear being beaten and robbed or murdered. perhaps that's a bad assumption on my part, and perhaps i'm putting too much faith in my own physicality, but that is my honest initial reaction.

the second thing that sticks in my mind are the college experiences i've alluded to. again, none of this happened directly to me, but i can think of two distinct examples where women who i know and adore felt as if they were raped, and as much as it hurts me to say this, i really didn't agree with them based on the information i had. it really seemed like, to me, a case of women who drank too much and did something they regretted.

and i felt terribly for feeling that way, and offered them as much support as they wanted, but deep down, that was my honest conclusion.

so it seemed like they had sex that they regretted, sex that they might not have had if they had been sober, but i don't think i can see that as rape, exactly, because i have to think that part of rape (as AliE has said) has to do with the intent of the perpetrator, and knowing one (but not both) of the guys involved in these two situations, i can 100% vouch for his character -- perhaps i am wrong, but i would vouch for him in a court of law without a second thought.

where situations like those lead us to are silly laws like in the state where i went to college -- if a woman has a single drink, she is legally unable to give consent. that strikes me as tremendously sexist, and one of the themes of my posts (i hope) has been that i believe in the sexual freedom and sexual complexity of women. i think women should be free to have sex with no guilt or shame. i think women should be able to drink as much as they want and make good or bad decisions. i want women to be empowered to do whatever they want with their bodies, so long as they are responsible for their actions -- please, because i can sense this coming already, don't throw at me any hoary cliches about women asking to be raped or anything. it's very clear to me in these situations (moving away from the "Rescue Me" scenario, which is different from what i'm discussing in this post) that no means no, that sex can stop at any point, and that consent kicks off any sexual experience.

i guess i don't want there to be different rules for men and women, as i see that as sexist, but perhaps there needs to be -- as was explained to me in one of the several rape prevention classes i went to in college, the man has "the weapon."

so maybe biology does matter?

 

[AliEnvy]

i guess i don't want there to be different rules for men and women, as i see that as sexist, but perhaps there needs to be --

I agree wholeheartedly. But the reality is that society IS sexist and even trying to determine what the rules are becomes a gender power play on who is protected and who is vulnerable...the tables can so easily be turned. That's why I said earlier that the bottom line is that the onus is on the men (carries of the weapon ha!) to be crystal clear on consent - for their own protection and well as the consideration of their partners.

 

[joyfulgirl]

that's interesting ... i wonder if you have a more nuanced view of rape due to gender? as i've said, this isn't something i spend a whole lot of time thinking about, and i hope people can appreciate that i'm doing my thinking by writing.

i suppose i am drawing a distinction between the rape-at-knifepoint (as opposed to a robbing-at-gunpoint, which is something i *do* worry about living where i live) and the "date rape scenario" is that i associate rape with a strong threat of violence and malice, and i don't see the strong violence and malice in the date rape scenario. i see other things, i see misogyny, i see domination, i see arrogance, i see violation, i see psychological trauma, but i don't see the intent to do grevious harm as in the knifepoint scenario. i see intent to get one's way, i see intent to prove manliness at the expense of someone else, but i don't see intent to destroy the other person (even though forms of destruction might occur in the aftermath).

is that a fair distinction? they may all be forms of violence, but i think to different degrees, and i think the intent of the perpetrator might matter here.

or does it? i'm really not sure, i have no answers, i'm just asking questions and thinking out loud.

i guess i see one as directly related to sex, and the other as a means of imposing grevious bodily harm in a particularly psychologically nasty form.

i also think that this is directly related to my experiences. firstly, as a gay man, i fear violence (particularly getting bashed) and though i haven't picked up anyone in a long time (and have always thought that to be a particularly risky activity) i wouldn't fear unwanted sex so much as i would fear being beaten and robbed or murdered. perhaps that's a bad assumption on my part, and perhaps i'm putting too much faith in my own physicality, but that is my honest initial reaction.

the second thing that sticks in my mind are the college experiences i've alluded to. again, none of this happened directly to me, but i can think of two distinct examples where women who i know and adore felt as if they were raped, and as much as it hurts me to say this, i really didn't agree with them based on the information i had. it really seemed like, to me, a case of women who drank too much and did something they regretted.

and i felt terribly for feeling that way, and offered them as much support as they wanted, but deep down, that was my honest conclusion.

so it seemed like they had sex that they regretted, sex that they might not have had if they had been sober, but i don't think i can see that as rape, exactly, because i have to think that part of rape (as AliE has said) has to do with the intent of the perpetrator, and knowing one (but not both) of the guys involved in these two situations, i can 100% vouch for his character -- perhaps i am wrong, but i would vouch for him in a court of law without a second thought.

where situations like those lead us to are silly laws like in the state where i went to college -- if a woman has a single drink, she is legally unable to give consent. that strikes me as tremendously sexist, and one of the themes of my posts (i hope) has been that i believe in the sexual freedom and sexual complexity of women. i think women should be free to have sex with no guilt or shame. i think women should be able to drink as much as they want and make good or bad decisions. i want women to be empowered to do whatever they want with their bodies, so long as they are responsible for their actions -- please, because i can sense this coming already, don't throw at me any hoary cliches about women asking to be raped or anything. it's very clear to me in these situations (moving away from the "Rescue Me" scenario, which is different from what i'm discussing in this post) that no means no, that sex can stop at any point, and that consent kicks off any sexual experience.

It's interesting that when I mentioned date rape, the thought of being drunk never entered my mind but I suppose that is the common scenario. I was actually talking about a woman who goes on a date, there is little to no alcohol consumed, she actually likes the guy and hopes to see him again, and at the end of the date the man kisses the woman good night, becomes a little more aggressive, she becomes uncomfortable and says she has to go, she tries to leave, he gets angry, becomes violent and rapes her. This happened to someone I know.

So I suppose our definitions come from our own experiences and/or from those of people we know. Rape to me is a violent act because it causes bodily harm and psychological harm. Ask a woman who has been raped if it felt violent. If she was drunk and doesn't remember, well, that's another story.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

i also think that this is directly related to my experiences. firstly, as a gay man, i fear violence (particularly getting bashed) and though i haven't picked up anyone in a long time (and have always thought that to be a particularly risky activity) i wouldn't fear unwanted sex so much as i would fear being beaten and robbed or murdered. perhaps that's a bad assumption on my part, and perhaps i'm putting too much faith in my own physicality, but that is my honest initial reaction

But rape, non-consensual sex of any kind isn't just unwanted sex-it goes so far beyond that . It is unwanted loss of power, unwanted loss of freedom of choice, of freedom from fear, of equality, of trust-and of so many other things.

I believe in the sexual freedom of women too, but so many of our other freedoms are always at the risk of being taken away by men who can't and won't take no for an answer and who use a sexual act to do so many other things to women. So until that stops our sexual freedom is still irrelevant in that way and the least of our concerns so to speak.

Date and acquaintance rape can be the most violent act possible without being physically violent. Mental and emotional violence and what that does to your psyche can also be much worse and take a toll on your life forever.

 

[AliEnvy]

Date and acquaintance rape can be the most violent act possible without being physically violent. Mental and emotional violence and what that does to your psyche can also be much worse and take a toll on your life forever.

Very well said.

 

[Irvine511]

That's why I said earlier that the bottom line is that the onus is on the men (carries of the weapon ha!) to be crystal clear on consent - for their own protection and well as the consideration of their partners.

i understand this, but is this not in and of itself sexist, it plays into the patriarchy?

 

[Irvine511]

It's interesting that when I mentioned date rape, the thought of being drunk never entered my mind but I suppose that is the common scenario. I was actually talking about a woman who goes on a date, there is little to no alcohol consumed, she actually likes the guy and hopes to see him again, and at the end of the date the man kisses the woman good night, becomes a little more aggressive, she becomes uncomfortable and says she has to go, she tries to leave, he gets angry, becomes violent and rapes her. This happened to someone I know.

yes, to me, this is certainly clear cut (as i'm sure it is to anybody). i really am talking about both the "Rescue Me" episode (which raises interesting questions) as well as the drunken college scenarios i've laid out before.

i would certainly see the above as a violent act, and i suppose i would put that in the jump-out-of-the-buses-rape-at-knifepoint cateogry as opposed to the drunken college scenario. what you described, to me, shows an intent by the perpetrator to do bodily harm to the victim, whereas the college scenario, to me, doesn't have the malicious intent.

 

[Irvine511]

Date and acquaintance rape can be the most violent act possible without being physically violent. Mental and emotional violence and what that does to your psyche can also be much worse and take a toll on your life forever.

it's interesting ... i think we all have somewhat different scenarios in mind when we hear words like "rape" or "date/acquaintance rape" and i think this leads to our differing (ever so slightly) reactions.

i'm sitting here thinking about it, and going through all these different scenarios, and trying to place myself in them, trying to walk in the shoes of a victim. the example Yolland brought up -- the gang rape -- or the example joyfulgirl brought up -- where a date becomes violent and rapes a woman -- strike me as physically and emotionally violent situations, though i'm surprised at how much work it takes for me to imagine myself in the second scenario. i'm a very empathetic person, and it usually doesn't take too much for me to imagine myself in someone else's place. and i think this comes down to the fact that even though i am a gay man, i am still a man, and i've never had to worry about being physically overpowered by an acquaintance, especially in an intimate situation. i'd fear being hit over the head with a crowbar, or being held up at gunpoint, or getting jumped by a group of teenagers, but in a one-on-one situation, it's hard for me to imagine, perhaps because all of the date rape literature is focused solely on women.

so it's this strange combination of being a man, yet a potential rape victim, that has made me so curious about this subject.

 

[AliEnvy]

i understand this, but is this not in and of itself sexist, it plays into the patriarchy?

Yep and it sucks.

I've been trying to focus on rape as a clear absence of consent and a *forced* act but the world of sexual politics and law has twisted that to the extreme. Any law that says a woman who has had one drink cannot legally consent to sex is as disempowering to women as making abortion illegal.

It suggests (or reinforces?) the idea that since woman don't make their intentions clear and are easily coerced into sexual situations, they need extreme protection.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Here are some rape stats as food for thought. RAINN (Rape Abuse Incest National Network), fyi, is an organization founded by Tori Amos who was raped at gunpoint by a fan, an event that inspired her song "Me and a Gun":

http://www.rainn.org/statistics/vic...ml?PHPSESSID=95bf1e4ce75a6a4b72da5350559252d7

The Victims of Sexual Assault

Women
* One out of every six American women have been the victims of an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape). This is according to the Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey, National Institute of Justice and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 1998.
* A total of 17.7 million women have been victims of these crimes.
* In 2003, nine out of every ten rape victims were female according to the 2003 National Crime Victimization Survey.

Men
* About three percent of American men —- a total of 2.78 million men—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime according to the 1998 Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women study.
* In 2003, one in every ten rape victims were male, according to the 2003 National Crime Victimization Study.

The Rapist Isn't a Masked Man
* Approximately 70% of female rape victims and 74% of male rape victims know their assailant according to the 2003 National Crime Victimization Survey.
* Approximately 50% of female victims and 44% of male victims are raped by a friend or acquaintance; 30% of female victims and 26% of male victims by a stranger; 12% of female victims and 30% of male victims by an intimate; 8% of female victims and less than 1% of male victims by another relative; but in less than 1% of cases the relationship is unknown.

He's Not Hiding in the Bushes
According to the 1997 Sex Offenses and Offenders study, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice:

* About four out of ten sexual assaults take place at the victim’s own home. Two in ten take place in the home of a friend, neighbor or relative. One in ten take place outside, away from home. And about one in 12 take place in a parking garage.
* More than half of all rape/sexual assault incidents were reported by victims to have occurred within one mile of their home or at their home.
* 43% of rapes occur between 6 pm and midnight. 24% occur between midnight and 6am. The other 33% take place between 6am and 6pm.

 

[AliEnvy]

I'm guessing in all the surveys and questionnaires done to amass this information, no one thought to ask if anyone thought their experience was enjoyable.



*runs*

 

[maycocksean]

It would seem I have to revise my conclusions.

I asked my sister and my wife if they thought something could start out as rape and end up being consensual sex and both said "yes." I was quite surprised by their responses.

My sister even went on to add that if the woman has an orgasm you can't argue the sex is unwanted!!

Thoughts on that?

 

[maycocksean]

Irvine, I think you're getting at something else. I think you may be asking the question, can a woman retract her consent after the fact. That may be what happens in some of the drunken scenarios you describe.

Alcohol always complicates things. I know for a fact that some guys hope a girl will get drunk because they know she's more likely to do things--like have sex--that maybe she wouldn't if she were sober. And when she wakes up the next morning, might she not think "dammnit, I didn't want that to happen." Is that rape?

 

[AliEnvy]

Now I'm very curious to know how your lovelies define rape!



But I guess that's been the merry-go-round in this thread all along lol.

 

[maycocksean]

My wife says rape is non-consensual sex. I guess she figures if the woman "changes her mind" during sex then it is considered consensual.

My sisters at work so I'm not sure what her defintion.

I asked her "How likely do you think that is?"

She said, if the woman knows the person, she thinks it's possible.

I asked her about the scene in A History of Violence? She said she became okay with it, because it was clear to her that Maria Bello's character became okay with it.

Then we talked about a friend of ours that was raped by her boyfriend. We don't know for sure what happened. We think she may have been raped initially, but sexual activity continued after that. The sense we got is that she was doing a lot of things with him that she really didn't want to do, but she felt like she "had" to, otherwise he "wouldn't love her" or would "get mad." My wife feels that the kind of manipulation he had going, the power he had over, was more damaging mentally and emotionally than rape would be.

 

[AliEnvy]

And when she wakes up the next morning, might she not think "dammnit, I didn't want that to happen." Is that rape?

This sounds like more like you are describing a bad decision to have consensual sex. A decision that may have been pressured, cajoled and emotionally manipulated by the man but so what? Still her decision.

Unless he physically forced her or used physical threats, it wasn't rape.