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Old 06-29-2006, 10:25 AM   #46
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I understanding what you are saying re the complexity of sexuality, but as a women, I personally don't need or want any gray area between rough sex and rape.
Same here. Bottom line seems to be that despite the complexity, the onus is on the man to alleviate confusion and be absolutely sure there is consent.
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Old 06-29-2006, 10:38 AM   #47
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I think some of us are going back and forth and talking about slightly different things.

I think it's fair to say that in a healthy relationship there will never be any grey area of consent.

But in the real world there are many unhealthy relationships. So is the concept of consent still that black and white?

Everyone keeps saying forced penetration is rape. But is there a difference in forced penetration and forceful penetration?(I hope this makes sense)

Was the scene in 'History of Violence' forced or just very forceful?

And I guess this is what I'm trying to get at about the scene here in question, was it forced or just very forceful? Or does it matter?
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Old 06-29-2006, 11:13 AM   #48
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
was it forced or just very forceful? Or does it matter?
The diffrerence between rough sex and rape is consent. So when we are saying forced penetration is rape, we are implying the absence of consent (verbal or non-verbal).

It sounds as if the scene starts with a very clear absence of consent and then blurs that line inappropriately in a way that wouldn't happen in a real situation. So either there should have been better physical clues from her at the beginning of the attack that showed a level of mutual intent OR they shouldn't have shown her enjoying herself a few minutes into the scene. Do you know what I mean?

Either depict a rape OR dysfunctional rough sex but suggesting both is offensive and adds to the obvious and dangerous confusion.
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Old 06-29-2006, 11:14 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But in the real world there are many unhealthy relationships. So is the concept of consent still that black and white?
But why loosen the definition of rape because it happens too often?

Quote:

Was the scene in 'History of Violence' forced or just very forceful?
I don't know, I'd have to watch it again. I remember thinking at the time "um...ok....not my idea of a good time, but...." I don't remember thinking the word "rape", but then again, I wasn't expecting that scene to happen, so I didn't put a lot of thought into it.
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Old 06-29-2006, 11:57 AM   #50
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
[B]So my answer is no, rape is forcible penetration, a crime, defined by the actions and intent of the perpetrator, not the degree of consent of the victim. Whether or not is punishable depends on the victim's reaction, but that's not the same as whether or not a rape occured.

so a woman could be raped and not think it was that big a deal? it's only a big deal if she presses charges? some rapes are better than others? does this not then play into the notions of a rape fantasy? that a rape could be pleasurable?

i'm not suggesting that this is the case, i'm trying to understand the outline you've proposed above. it seems to me that if rape is defined by the actions an intent of the perpetrator, and not in the reaction of the victim, and if the victim has a positive reaction, then it's a rape but not a crime?

i'm genuinely confused.




[q]Rough sex and role playing are not rape, just like if you're in a play and your character gets shoved to the ground by another character, that is not assault.[/q]


this i totally agree with, however might the scene in "Rescue Me" or the situation BVS has described fall under this definition?
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Old 06-29-2006, 11:58 AM   #51
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Originally posted by AliEnvy

Either depict a rape OR dysfunctional rough sex but suggesting both is offensive and adds to the obvious and dangerous confusion.


i wonder if this wasn't precisely the point of the scene.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:12 PM   #52
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The people who made the show don't even agree on what the scene means (Tolan says rape, Leary says no rape) so my tummy tells me they just messed it up and some of the audience is left thinking (or having their assumptions reinforced) that some women secretly enjoy rape.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:18 PM   #53
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so a woman could be raped and not think it was that big a deal? it's only a big deal if she presses charges? some rapes are better than others? does this not then play into the notions of a rape fantasy? that a rape could be pleasurable?
Rape is rape. Whether or not a woman presses charges is her decision. Just because she doesn't, doesn't mean it's not a big deal or that she liked it. Whether or not she thinks it's a big deal has no bearing on whether or not a rape is a rape. A LOT of women act like it's not a big deal. Like I said, they're traumatized, in denial, trying to make sense of it and come to ANY conclusion other than: I was grossly violated against my will.

Quote:
i'm not suggesting that this is the case, i'm trying to understand the outline you've proposed above. it seems to me that if rape is defined by the actions an intent of the perpetrator, and not in the reaction of the victim, and if the victim has a positive reaction, then it's a rape but not a crime?
Rape is always a crime. I was referring to whether or not it gets reported. Most of them don't. But that doesn't mean a crime wasn't committed or that it was less of a rape. I guess it depends on whether you believe a crime is a crime if it doesn't get reported or prosecuted. All I'm saying is that THAT discussion would have NO influence on whether or not a rape occured and how we define rape.


Quote:

[q]Rough sex and role playing are not rape, just like if you're in a play and your character gets shoved to the ground by another character, that is not assault.[/q]

this i totally agree with, however might the scene in "Rescue Me" or the situation BVS has described fall under this definition?
I don't know, like I said I'd have to see the movie again, and I've never seen this TV show.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:22 PM   #54
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
Like I said, they're traumatized, in denial, trying to make sense of it and come to ANY conclusion other than: I was grossly violated against my will.


Much the same way women suffering domestic violence live in denial, think it's their fault (or that others might think it's their fault) and don't press charges.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:25 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


The diffrerence between rough sex and rape is consent. So when we are saying forced penetration is rape, we are implying the absence of consent (verbal or non-verbal).
I understand this and have acknowledged this.
Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy

It sounds as if the scene starts with a very clear absence of consent and then blurs that line inappropriately in a way that wouldn't happen in a real situation. So either there should have been better physical clues from her at the beginning of the attack that showed a level of mutual intent OR they shouldn't have shown her enjoying herself a few minutes into the scene. Do you know what I mean?

Either depict a rape OR dysfunctional rough sex but suggesting both is offensive and adds to the obvious and dangerous confusion.
But no one in here has seen the scene, I just see a lot of conjecture.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:28 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

But no one in here has seen the scene, I just see a lot of conjecture.
But I think that we shouldn't be re-defining rape based on two scence in movies/TV. I'd like to think that the way I feel about it won't ever change, regardless of a TV show.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:29 PM   #57
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


But why loosen the definition of rape because it happens too often?
No one is loosening anything.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:32 PM   #58
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Ok forget the scene for a moment. At the heart of this issue is this:

Do you think a woman can possibly enjoy sex that is forced on her against her will? Under what circumstances? Why?

Is it possible that a man who is bi-curious who is raped against his will might decide during the act, hey so this is pretty good after all....
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:34 PM   #59
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


But I think that we shouldn't be re-defining rape based on two scence in movies/TV. I'd like to think that the way I feel about it won't ever change, regardless of a TV show.
We're not redefining anything.

I'm just trying to acknowledge that there are unhealthy relationships out there that may not exactly be black and white.

You admitted that you couldn't say yes or no if the scene in History of Violence was concentual or not. So obviously there is gray, that's all I'm saying.
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Old 06-29-2006, 12:35 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

No one is loosening anything.
Then what do you mean by saying that "there are lots of unhealthy relationships, so...." There's lots of unhealthy everything. Rape is rape. Is it possible to enjoy rough sex? Sure! But that's not rape.
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