Controversy Surrounding Rescue Me Episode

[Liesje]

We're not redefining anything.

I'm just trying to acknowledge that there are unhealthy relationships out there that may not exactly be black and white.

You admitted that you couldn't say yes or no if the scene in History of Violence was concentual or not. So obviously there is gray, that's all I'm saying.

How is rape not black and white?

I can't say my opinion on the scene because it was a long time ago, late at night, and I didn't pay much attention to that scene since it kinda weirded me out. If I have to say right now, I'd say no, that was not rape.

 

[Dreadsox]

Has the actress in the scene had any comments about it? Has she explained how she felt about the scene? Was she trying to convey something in it?

 

[BVS]

How is rape not black and white?

I didn't say rape isn't black and white, I said consent may not be black and white. There is a difference.

What if someone was in a very volatile relationship and had many sexual encounters similar to the one in History. It was common to get into very violent fights that turned into very forceable sex. She later on resolves these issues that allowed her to be so submissive and decides the sex wasn't consentual? Can she claim rape?

I guess my point is that what was consentual in that relationship wouldn't be considered consentual in a healthy relationship.

 

[Irvine511]

Do you think a woman can possibly enjoy sex that is forced on her against her will? Under what circumstances? Why?

Is it possible that a man who is bi-curious who is raped against his will might decide during the act, hey so this is pretty good after all....

yes, to both of these questions.

it can happen, and probably does, but it is not common.

ultimately, the perpetrator should have stopped at the moment the woman or man in the above situations said no, or better, he should have sought consent first (but then again, i don't think i've ever expressly sought permission, it all sort of happens, or doesn't happen as it should).

but the question is what if after the fact the victim isn't unhappy with the situation -- and i don't think we can simply say that all women (or men) are simply in denial. i think sexuality is a complex thing, and right now we're talking about very uncommon, almost theoretical situations.

in a broad sense, of course i agree with LivLuv and AliE.

but i also don't think that one scene in one TV show is going to turn men into rapists. i really don't.

i am also struck by the reaction in an earlier thread started by A_W about how rape statistics have plummeted (by 85%!) over the past 30 years, while the availability of porn has gone up. now, i think it was a mistake to correlate the two, (all that it might show is that porn does not make men rape), but i also think that we have to look at this as good news. yes, rape is underreported, but i would bet that a much higher percentage of rapes are reported now than 30 years ago, and still the numbers are dropping (it's kind of like with HIV where diagnoses is going up but actual infection rates are down, the reason is because more people get tested) i think society has progressed a tremendous amount and i think women are more sexually empowered than ever -- to say no, to say yes, to say whatever they want and to have complex sexual and emotional lives.

anyway, i think the biggest determinant is consent. any behavior is fine, so long as it is consented to.

i think the question the scene (as we understand it) raises is this: can consent be given after the fact?

 

[AliEnvy]

yes, to both of these questions.

it can happen, and probably does, but it is not common.

Under what circumstances and why do you think it happens?

Along the same lines, do you think there are some women who enjoy being beaten by their boyfriends or husbands?

 

[Irvine511]

Under what circumstances and why do you think it happens?

Along the same lines, do you think there are some women who enjoy being beaten by their boyfriends or husbands?

i'm not sure this is an answerable question as it would come down to an individual's psycho-sexual make up -- probably people who enjoy being submissive, enjoy being subdued, enjoy physical tension and aggression in their relationships.

can you consent to forced sex? (this would be different to unwanted sex, i think)

i think one thing we're missing is that in any of these situations consent is implied -- one partner knows the other wants to be dominated, controlled, subdued, made to submit, etc. i suppose the question is whether or not consent to forced sex was a part of the relationship on the show.

i don't think the beating question is applicable. as i've said, i think sexual desire is very complex, and i don't see the parallels between beating someone versus a sexual interaction. i do think, however, that some people do enjoy violence in sex -- some people want to be slapped, smacked, punched, and put in uncomfortable positions because this is pleasurable to them (whereas i think you'd have a hard time finding anyone who would consent to a full-on physical beating).

again, the issue comes down to not what physical acts occur, but to consent to the physical acts that occur, which leads me back to my initial question: can consent be given after the act?

 

[AliEnvy]

can you consent to forced sex? (this would be different to unwanted sex, i think)

Consenting (however it is implied and mutually understood) to forceful sex is not rape and being forced to submit to unwanted sex (rape) is not enjoyable...in any context.

[q]
i don't think the beating question is applicable. as i've said, i think sexual desire is very complex, and i don't see the parallels between beating someone versus a sexual interaction.[/q]

I was comparing a beating to rape, not a sexual interaction. Do you see the parallels between a beating and rape?

 

[maycocksean]

I suspect what we may be looking at here is some fundamental differences between how men and women approach sexuality, and also looking at the impact the power disparities between men and women in the wider world affect how we relate to sex.

The experience of rape, I think, is very hard for men to relate to. The closest I can come as heterosexual male is to imagining between raped by another man, and that would be absolutely horrifying and humiliating and just devastating to me. But I think that comes more from the fact that I'm not attracted to men sexually. There's no "good" parallell for me in the sense that there IS no "good version" of sex with a man for me. (That's why I think your perspective, Irvine, as a gay man is useful for you, because you do have that parallell). I know it's theoretically possible for a man to be raped by a woman, but obviously it's very rare for many reasons. One of those is simply physiological--for a guy to "do" anything or have anything "done" he's kinda got to be in to it. If I'm hating every moment of something that's going on, could I still even manage an erection? (Sorry to be so graphic everyone) I feel like I wouldn't be able to. But I don't know. . .

I guess my point is this, men have to take women at their word about what constitutes rape because it would seem we don't have much in our own experience to relate to this with. I don't think we, as men, can answer the question Irvine asked: Is it possible for consent to happen after the fact? Women must answer this question and it would appear based on the replies of the women in this forum, no it cannot. It can "appear" that way, perhaps. But inside, the truth, is "No, I hated this." Unwanted sex is going to leave a woman feeling shitty regardless of how she "acts" on the outside.

There is such a thing as violent consensual sex, I think. And I believe that seeing such sex scenes would be uncomfortable for people who don't like this kind of sexaul behavior. But the key is, it is consensual, both enjoy what is happening. (It wasn't so graphic, and it was kind of cartoonish, but I think of a scene in Mr. and Mrs. Smith). I think such people are rare (whether it is "unhealthy" or not is up for debate) but it would seem most women are not open to violent consensual sex.

The problem we're having here is that we're referencing two scenes in film/tv that most of us have either not seen or forgotten, so making judgements about what happened there is almost a moot point.

I do think this discussion is very important though. Since there appears to be such a gap in understanding it is crucial that we communicate as men and women so that we can understand.

 

[Liesje]

^ Thank you. I've been trying to think of an example to illuminate this issue but from a male perspective, and I can't. Of course, I don't think you, or I, am saying that men can't comment on it or have an opinion, but it's very difficult for me to even understand a question like "can you consent to forced sex?" It's either consensual, or it's forced. I can't fathom why any woman would decide that she enjoyed being "raped".

 

[maycocksean]

Has the actress in the scene had any comments about it? Has she explained how she felt about the scene? Was she trying to convey something in it?

Yes, she does. It's in the DVD commentary. Maria Bello said it was difficult to do (took about two days apparently) but it sounds like more because it was very demanding physically (apparently she got pretty bruised up). Her explanation is--and you kind of have to remember the context of the whole film for this--that her character, who at first is is horrified by this "other person" her husband has turned out to be--essentially, a gangster, is finding that actually she is attracted to it. That this "bad guy" perhaps was there all along and she was attracted to that side of him too. Something like that. I'm probably not doing justice to what she said. She said the scene was meant to contrast with the other sex scene earlier before we find out this guy's "secret past." She also said clearly that the sex was consensual, in her mind. She's the one that pointed out the pause where he stops, and then she makes it continue.

To be honest, to make any judgements about either scene in Resuce Me or History, in all fairness, it's important to take the time to watch the scenes.

Though I think the larger questions are worthwhile to discuss as I said in my last post. I just don't think it's really fair to discuss them in the context of scenes we haven't seen.

 

[Irvine511]

Consenting (however it is implied and mutually understood) to forceful sex is not rape and being forced to submit to unwanted sex (rape) is not enjoyable...in any context.

okay. i'd agree, so how can we assume, then, that the scene in "Rescue Me" was indeed rape? could it have been a mutual understanding of consent, as understood by the lack of negative reaction by the woman at the end of the scene? could it be that what we saw was *forced* sex (not forceful) that was ultimately desired?

and you still haven't answered the question as to whether or not consent can be given after the fact.

i am truly curious about this

I was comparing a beating to rape, not a sexual interaction. Do you see the parallels between a beating and rape?

well, we haven't even defined, totally, what rape vs. forced sex vs. forceful sex is, nor have we defined when consent must take place in order for rape to have or have not occurred, so it's rather hard to compare what we have been talking about -- a murky area apparently explored on this show, and also in our conjecture in this thread -- versus what we all understand as clearly rape.

i can see some paralles between a beating and a rape, in a broad sense, but i don't see the parallels you're trying to draw between a beating and a rape. i do think, however, they are different crimes and take a different toll on the one who is raped versus the one who is beaten.

 

[AliEnvy]

I need a drink

 

[maycocksean]

and you still haven't answered the question as to whether or not consent can be given after the fact.




well, we haven't even defined, totally, what rape vs. forced sex vs. forceful sex is, nor have we defined when consent must take place in order for rape to have or have not occurred

I think we may have found the answer to both questions, though Irvine, based on the responses we've received so far. It would seem, if we accept that this a question only women can answer, that all the women we've talked to say that, no. . .consent cannot be given after the fact. They've also said, forceful sex okay. Forced sex = rape, so forced sex is never okay.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

The people who made the show don't even agree on what the scene means (Tolan says rape, Leary says no rape) so my tummy tells me they just messed it up and some of the audience is left thinking (or having their assumptions reinforced) that some women secretly enjoy rape.

Bingo, I think that's dead on. They'll cover their behinds somehow.

And as for the rest-well disfunctional relationship or not, just the description of the scene sounds like rape to me (fighting back like that indicates non-consent in my eyes), and some people also still don't think rape can happen when people are married or even in a relationship. That is an important point to be made-the cnn clip discusses spousal rape. I would have to watch it again but I believe the report said something like 30 % or more of women report instances of non-consensual sex in their marriages. That number could be wrong, my memory is foggy about the number.

If men still believe that women really have rape fantasies, they need to get some help for that. Speaking for myself, a woman might have a fantasy about some guy she's really attracted to wanting her as much as she wants him, but in a loving, non-violent context. It's the desire that we desire. Wanting a guy to want you like that is not wanting to be raped. Perhaps men who think that way really have the fantasy of raping a woman, and they project it onto her somehow. Yes some people are into some types of violent sex, but that is still consensual and mutual and the consent is clear-or else it's certainly rape in my eyes.

It's just scary to me to think of any men/teenage boys watching that show and that scene and thinking along the lines of "gee it's true, they do really want it even if they fight it and you and punch you until you're bleeding" That is quite dangerous.

 

[Irvine511]

but it's very difficult for me to even understand a question like "can you consent to forced sex?" It's either consensual, or it's forced. I can't fathom why any woman would decide that she enjoyed being "raped".

how is it hard to understand? if forced sex is consented to, the person is basically asking his/her partner to physically coerce them into having sex with them, and it is the act of physical coercion that is as erotic as the act itself. this can go anywhere from the "bodice-ripping" we've all heard of (the man tears her clothes off) to something we'd all probably be much more uncomfortable watching, but we can't truly judge unless we are in the shoes of the participants. i think it is possible to consent to someone forcing you to have sex ... though i think we're getting hung up on terminology, for if it is consented, then one could just as easily say "stop" or whatever safe word has been agreed upon -- note, the idea of a "safe word" implies that words like "no" or "stop" might be part of the role play -- and then the other person would stop.

i agree that most people wouldn't find any of this a turn-on. but some do.

i also want to add that i'm finding this all very interesting in an intellectual way, and that we are talking about very isolated examples. i think the vast majority of rape cases are clear cut, but i do think that teasing out the nuances of sexuality and desire is interesting and illuminating.

as for myself ... again, i find it hard to imagine myself in a "date rape" situation. i can imagine someone jumping out of the bushes and commiting an act of physical violence that involved penetration. but that, to me, is a violent act, the penetration seems secondary. in these "date rape" scenarios where two people are by choice intimate but one doesn't want to actually have intercourse and the other does, i suppose i can't see myself not being able to make myself clear and understood or to physically restrain someone if i needed to. but i am a big, strong guy. perhaps therein lies some of the difference?

i went on a date once, and all went well until he got fairly drunk, and we were at a gay bar and he started groping me and feeling me up in the middle of the floor. i found it funny. i kept thinking of lines to say, like, "i'm not that kind of girl!" or something like that. but i wasn't terribly upset, it was sort of an eyeroll situation. he kept wanting to take me out to his parked car and mess around and things like that, and i sort of brushed it off and let him continue to touch me because it didn't bother me that much -- i was more concerned that people would think this little troll was going to take me home rather than about where his hands were going. does that make sense?

however, if this had been a heterosexual situation, i think it would have engendered a much more angered reaction from your typical female.

why? what are the differences in the genders that make us react differently?




(am really hoping i won't regret posting this ... i really do mean it all for the sake of discussion)

 

[Irvine511]

if we accept that this a question only women can answer, that all the women we've talked to say that, no. . .consent cannot be given after the fact. They've also said, forceful sex okay. Forced sex = rape, so forced sex is never okay.

has anyone yet said that consent cannot be given after the fact? if so, i missed it. also, no correct answer, just looking for an answer.

but i wonder -- if it is a question that only a woman can answer, why can't she change her mind after the fact?

i'm not saying that would ever happen, but theoretically, could it?

 

[Irvine511]

If men still believe that women really have rape fantasies, they need to get some help for that. Speaking for myself, a woman might have a fantasy about some guy she's really attracted to wanting her as much as she wants him, but in a loving, non-violent context. It's the desire that we desire. Wanting a guy to want you like that is not wanting to be raped. Perhaps men who think that way really have the fantasy of raping a woman, and they project it onto her somehow. Yes some people are into some types of violent sex, but that is still consensual and mutual and the consent is clear-or else it's certainly rape in my eyes.

i think this is true for the vast majority of women, but i think it's entirely possible for a woman to have a rape fantasy but not want to be actually raped. one situation is role play (and in these role plays, the submissive person actually has the power because they are calling the shots ... and, of course, it is all consented to) and the other situation is a straight up crime.

i think women should be entitled to have any sorts of fantasies they want. whether they want only married missionary sex or wild and crazy sex with leather and toys and superhero costumes where they call each other "daddy" and/or "mommy" or a fantasy rape scenario, it's all fine. we all have the rights to any sexual fantasies we want, and we have the right (within the constraints of the law ... obviously, there are some fantasies that are illegal or harmful for various reasons) to pursue the fulfillment of these fantasies as we see fit.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I think the bottom line is that the majority of men can physically dominate the majority of women. That inequality engenders so much fear. Nothing would ever be funny or innocuous to me about a guy even making unwelcome and unwanted advances like touching, etc. because the physical fear is always there. And because that in itself is a violation, at the very least of my space and my dignity.

You can't just talk a guy out of something on a date and/or in a date rape type situation or make yourself clear-that's just not realistic or really all that fair to expect women to do in my opinion. And of course there's the issue of drinking and roofies and all that.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Well rape fantasy to me means wanting a guy to rape you and fantasizing about that, which equals fantasizing about non-consensual sex-violent, semi-violent, forced in a physical way, etc. I've never met or known any woman who has told me she fantasizes about men in that way. A strong desire that is passionate and hot in that way, yes. But the woman is still in her portion of the control and it is mutually wanted in that sort of scenario.

 

[AliEnvy]

Maybe what's commonly called a rape fantasy revolves around sexual fantasies of being submissive and giving in to sexual desire since women still aren't really expected to be sexually assertive and all the double standard BS. I would compare that more to the no means yes scenario and in the realm of fantasy, the woman feels completely safe and in control of what is happening in her fantasy...the opposite of how that same woman would feel if she were raped for real.

 

[Irvine511]

the woman feels completely safe and in control of what is happening in her fantasy...the opposite of how that same woman would feel if she were raped for real.

and herein lies the best teased-out distinction we've yet had, i think -- it really is in the mind of the woman (in this situation).

so she gets to call the shots, she gets to determine whether it is or isn't rape, yes?

so where does that leave men? does this put a potentially unfair burden of proof on them? do we always automatically believe a woman?

 

[yolland]

i really find this whole thing interesting because i feel like i'm in the position of someone who could be raped, but would could also be accused of being a rapist, and i honestly can't imagine myself at all in either situation (whereas most women i know can easily imagine themselves a rape victim) so i'm just trying to understand it better.
...................................
the last thing i wonder is that if part of the power of rape comes not from forced penetration, not from genetalia used to commit a crime, but to certain dynamics that exist between men and women that wouldn't necessarily apply to same sex couples. perhaps it's the combination of opposite-sex interactions, combined with (on average) greater male strength and his possession of "the weapon" that turns rape into a multi-layered violation on a physical, emotional, and psychic level, and that it's ultimately much more than simply an unwanted penetration.

Have you ever known a man who considered himself to have been raped? I just ask because I had a (male) friend in grad school who had been. Admittedly what happened to him was way outside this "gray area" category, because he'd been gang-raped by a group of complete strangers in the parking lot of a bar. So, I'm not certain how fully or even whether it's relevant here. But for sure, it was very clear to me from hearing him talk about it that being a man, in and of itself, had NOT made him immune to all those feelings of profound humiliation, suppressed rage, deep shame, etc. that we'd more commonly associate with raped women. It was almost 10 years since it happened, but he still regarded it as being by far the most traumatic experience of his life, and was still haunted and badly messed up by it in all sorts of ways.

I should probably add that he was straight, and therefore most unlikely to have ever had any sort of "rape fantasy" involving other men--though frankly, I find it hard to believe that a gay man would've found such a situation anything but horribly traumatic, either. I can imagine--actually, I think I might even have read somewhere--an argument that Well, gay men's sexuality is much less bound up with needing to be "The Man," sexually speaking, and that makes it different, etc.; but I'm wary of this line of thinking because it seems like by the same logic, straight women shouldn't really get all that worked up about the odd "forced penetration" here and there, because after all isn't their sexuality all bound up with that Object-of-the-Gaze, longing-to-inspire-uncontrollable-lust kind of stuff. Sure, underlying social messages (e.g., women who "let" men take advantage of them are "dishonored") do affect the whole equation; I'm not denying that. But I also suspect that everyone, regardless of sex or orientation, has certain irreducible core needs for control over who "uses" their bodies sexually and how, psychological boundaries that can't be violated without taking a toll.

I'd be interested to know more about to what extent rape is considered an "issue" within the gay community, though.

Overall, and at least with reference to straight couples, I think I feel most sympathetic to maycocksean's point--that while it may happen sometimes that an initially wholly unwelcome sexual encounter later gives rise to arousal or even "tender" feelings (maybe even especially in longterm-but-highly-dysfunctional relationships?), nonetheless, whatever emotional "resolution" it is that occurs there really does need to be held somewhat suspect, and we really do need to consider whether it might in the end take a high toll on the woman's psychological health (and for that matter, the man's too, IMO). I don't think we can assume that the emotional dynamics involved there are necessarily similar to those that might make consensual rough sex or S/M roleplaying erotic. And the same goes for date rape, really--it just seems like it's ultimately in everyone's best interests to regard nonconsensuality as unacceptable from the get-go; it's not as if you're missing something you couldn't experience less riskily (and more healthily) the consensual way.

 

[Irvine511]

Nothing would ever be funny or innocuous to me about a guy even making unwelcome and unwanted advances like touching, etc. because the physical fear is always there.

another interesting difference.

there are very few men who i would feel physically intimidated by, and i could have knocked this little troll to the floor in a second. so that's why i found it funny -- there was no fear.

i can see how this is different in a heterosexual context. i really can.

of course men can rape men (in fact, i believe Greg Lougains was a rape victim), but i when i envision it i see it in the context of a broader violent act with a knife or a gun or something, i can't see what i imagine to be a more typical heterosexual date rape scenario where a man sort of forces himself upon a woman and simply doesn't stop.

 

[AliEnvy]

has anyone yet said that consent cannot be given after the fact? if so, i missed it. also, no correct answer, just looking for an answer.

but i wonder -- if it is a question that only a woman can answer, why can't she change her mind after the fact?

i'm not saying that would ever happen, but theoretically, could it?

I'm not sure what you mean by consent after the fact.

Are you suggesting that after experiencing rape a woman might say, well ok, maybe I did want sex afterall, it's all good, what he did is fine.

That sounds eerily like the wheels of trauma and denial to me.

Are there women who feel guilty and slutty after casual, consensual sex who have the same wheels of trauma and denial moving in the opposite direction? No doubt.

 

[yolland]

Maybe what's commonly called a rape fantasy revolves around sexual fantasies of being submissive and giving in to sexual desire since women still aren't really expected to be sexually assertive and all the double standard BS. I would compare that more to the no means yes scenario and in the realm of fantasy, the woman feels completely safe and in control of what is happening in her fantasy...the opposite of how that same woman would feel if she were raped for real.

I think this is, in fact, more or less the prevalent theory about the psychological function "rape fantasies" serve--they allow the "experience" of being pursued and desired uncontrollably (the stuff of fairytales, right?...) without the real-world "downsides" (horrible word choice, sorry) of being overpowered, humiliated, "subjected," "used," etc.

We need VintagePunk in here....

 

[Irvine511]

Have you ever known a man who considered himself to have been raped? I just ask because I had a (male) friend in grad school who had been. Admittedly what happened to him was way outside this "gray area" category, because he'd been gang-raped by a group of complete strangers in the parking lot of a bar. So, I'm not certain how fully or even whether it's relevant here. But for sure, it was very clear to me from hearing him talk about it that being a man, in and of itself, had NOT made him immune to all those feelings of profound humiliation, suppressed rage, deep shame, etc. that we'd more commonly associate with raped women. It was almost 10 years since it happened, but he still regarded it as being by far the most traumatic experience of his life, and was still haunted and badly messed up by it in all sorts of ways.

as you said, this would be a situation where i could imagine myself, and i'd view myself as more the victim of a violent crime than as someone who submitted to an undesired penetration. it seems like there's no ambiguity here, so i'm not entirely sure how relevant it is to the various scenarios we've been discussing in this thread, as you noted. and, yes, i'm sure i'd be as thoroughly traumatized as he is.

and it sounds utterly horrible. and i am very sad for your friend and i hope he has recovered as best as can be expected.



[q]I'd be interested to know more about to what extent rape is considered an "issue" within the gay community, though.[/q]

it's not something i've ever dealt with, nor is it something that i've ever heard of, to be honest. i know several female victims of rape, but i can honestly say that i don't know (know of, more accurately) any gay male victims of rape. perhaps this is because the physical equality of the two men removes the possibility of one being able to successfully make the other physically submit, or perhaps more men would be less inclined to put up a fight -- in these date rape scenarios, not in the gang-bang parking lot scenario you mentioned -- and simply acquiesce and get it over with.

perhaps i'll have a different perspective in 10 years, but for now, it's really not an issue that i'm aware of. the biggest issues, of course, are the fear of HIV infection and of being bashed.

Overall, and at least with reference to straight couples, I think I feel most sympathetic to maycocksean's point--that while it may happen sometimes that an initially wholly unwelcome sexual encounter later gives rise to arousal or even "tender" feelings (maybe even especially in longterm-but-highly-dysfunctional relationships?), nonetheless, whatever emotional "resolution" it is that occurs there really does need to be held somewhat suspect, and we really do need to consider whether it might in the end take a high toll on the woman's psychological health (and for that matter, the man's too, IMO).

sort of a Stockholm Syndrome?

perhaps "Rescue Me" was getting at this?

(gosh, now i really have to see this episode ... )

 

[Irvine511]

Are you suggesting that after experiencing rape a woman might say, well ok, maybe I did want sex afterall, it's all good, what he did is fine.

yes, this is what i'm saying. this is what seemed to happen on the show. i don't think this is typical, i don't think this is healthy, but i do think it is possible.


[q]That sounds eerily like the wheels of trauma and denial to me.[/q]

perhaps -- but can't we let women make their own decisions and understand their own feelings? i suppose i'm also suspicious of trying to steer someone's reaction in a certain way.

Are there women who feel guilty and slutty after casual, consensual sex who have the same wheels of trauma and denial moving in the opposite direction? No doubt.

and this is what i feel happened between my two friends. i really do. and i feel sorry for them both.

 

[AliEnvy]

but can't we let women make their own decisions and understand their own feelings? i suppose i'm also suspicious of trying to steer someone's reaction in a certain way.

I come back to my battered wife tale...she makes her own decisions and understands her own feelings (however unhealthy and twisted)...but it doesn't in any way shape or form excuse, condone or justify the beatings OR suggest that she enjoyed the beatings.

A woman who has been raped making an excuse retrospectively about wanting sex as a form of denial is comparable to a women who says to herself after being pushed down the stairs, I burnt the potroast so I sure did have that coming to me.

 

[joyfulgirl]

as you said, this would be a situation where i could imagine myself, and i'd view myself as more the victim of a violent crime than as someone who submitted to an undesired penetration. it seems like there's no ambiguity here, so i'm not entirely sure how relevant it is to the various scenarios we've been discussing in this thread, as you noted. and, yes, i'm sure i'd be as thoroughly traumatized as he is.

and it sounds utterly horrible. and i am very sad for your friend and i hope he has recovered as best as can be expected.

I have a gay friend who was raped and was deeply traumatized by the experience. He picked up this guy in a bar with the intention of having a one night stand. But once they got back to the guy's place, it turned ugly. The guy overpowered my friend and violently penetrated him against his will. It was painful and horrible. The guy then wouldn't give him his keys so he ended up running down the street and banging on doors for help. So here was a situation in which the original intent was fun, casual, sex, but then he realized the guy was a psychopath. Yes, that's the risk you take when you pick up strangers but it didn't make it less painful. I don't think this is that unusual and I'm kind of surprised that it's something you haven't heard of in the gay community, Irvine.

That said, I do get some of your points. I haven't seen the show so I can't comment. In The History of Violence it was clear to me that it was consensual. I do think it's possible for a woman who has been raped by her boyfriend or husband to consent "after the fact" because the feelings are so confusing in those situations (vs. being raped by a stranger) and it's kind of like in abusive relationshps when the man beats up his wife then says he's sorry and he loves her and she forgives him.

 

[Irvine511]

A woman who has been raped making an excuse retrospectively about wanting sex as a form of denial is comparable to a women who says to herself after being pushed down the stairs, I burnt the potroast so I sure did have that coming to me.

really?

i guess i don't/didn't see that as i guess i view date rape (as opposed to the jump-out-of-the-bushes-at-knifepoint/gang rape Yolland described) as something that really can't be compared to straight up violence. not that one is better or worse than the other, they are just different and would likewise engender differing responses.

but i'm not a woman.