Constitution Watch: The birth of "democracy" in Iraq - Page 5 - U2 Feedback

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Old 08-24-2005, 11:53 PM   #61
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All the stuff you said Teta, it should be plain to see that these are all very real threats to the territorial integrity of iraq and its ability to become a nation. Bush doesnt seem to care what the constitution is about as long as its finished on schedule. dumb as a doorknob. US is creating a de facto kurdish state and obviously the kurds want the constitution to pass, cause of that. iraq is becoming an islamist country, so the shiites are happy. sunnis are gonna end up being screwed over eventually, along with the other countries in the region. i wonder what the supporters of this mess have to say to that.

also, i think creation of a kurdish state would definitely tick off turkiye.
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Old 08-25-2005, 05:57 PM   #62
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Hey, All I Want, I didn't say if I was for or against the creation of a Kurdish state.. I would object to any attempt to persecute any minority in the polulation though.

That said, it's a foregone conclusion. A Kurdish state (along with Karabagh being politically re-united with Armenia) will only happen when oil grows on trees. I can see Azerbaijan looking like Checnya in 30 yrs time....it's one of my nightmares. And for the same reasons....

(BTW...you mentioned the Kurdish scholar being allowed to go home at the end of this month. I haven't kept up with Armenian news on my favorite website for that stuff in a couple of months, and my church newsletter only convers U.S community events. Is he leaving with the books? Just say yes or no..I promised I'd shut up about this.

Read the thread about what John Bolton is doing to the UN....that'll REALLY raise your hackles. The rest of the world is going to find out that the Democrats were not just trying to prevent this guy from being the Us UN ambassador b/c they were playing politics. Bush had to get this guy in there before the September summit, he was in a blind panic, or the Bush agenda for dismantling the UN as an effective global body would be dead in the water....
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:12 PM   #63
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the guy wasnt kurdish, he was turkish. and nope, he had to leave the books behind. he got his CDs back though.
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Old 08-26-2005, 08:16 AM   #64
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ixnewstop.html

Iraq on brink of meltdown
By Oliver Poole in Baghdad
(Filed: 26/08/2005)

Q&A: charter talks fail for a third time

The credibility of Iraq's political process was in danger last night as parliament again failed to vote on a draft constitution which a Sunni politician said was "fit only for the bin".

The government had earlier announced plans to bypass parliament in an attempt to push through the document.

But as the final hours ran out before the deadline for approving the constitution, Hajim al-Hassani, the speaker of the parliament, appeared to overrule the country's leaders by insisting that negotiations would continue today, meaning that the deadline would be missed for the third time.

The impression of growing crisis in Iraq was reinforced when a new front erupted in the violent rebellion, with Shia Muslims fighting each other with guns and rocket-propelled grenades.

Ibrahim al-Jaafari, the prime minister, made an emergency television appeal for peace and sent two police commando units to Najaf where the fighting had started.

Throughout the day in Baghdad, politicians bickered over how to proceed with the constitution without driving the country to civil war.

As night fell, the government's official spokesman, Laith Kubba, announced that a final version of the document had been decided and compromise reached on three issues, although he did not say which. Sunni leaders said that no consensus had been reached.

Hussein al-Falluji, a Sunni member of the drafting panel, said: "If this constitution continues to include federalism, it should be put in the bin and done again."

The chances of the parliament convening declined by the minute. Kamal Hamdoun, a Sunni negotiator, said the Shia politicians - the dominant force in the national assembly - had not turned up for a meeting.

"They are acting according to the law of force instead of the force of law. We call on all Iraqis to vote No in the constitutional referendum."

Shia politicians made clear that they did not see any need for the parliament to vote. The draft is to be put to a referendum in October.

...

I'd hoped they would be able to solve this
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Old 08-26-2005, 05:12 PM   #65
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The language controversy.........oh, brother. That's potentially a pretty chaotic situation. I definitely think Iraq could just plain break up, and the Turks would be pretty damn unhappy with a Kurdish Republic on their borders. Since you're a Turk yourself you know what you're talking about.
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Old 08-27-2005, 04:18 PM   #66
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Thanks for posting that, Scarletwine. Over here in the US, Bush is looking to milk any postive perceptions he can spin from the impending disaster, and sad to say, some of the media is only too willing to help. Today's Nw York Post, ( a little mag that interestingly enough was founded in 1803 by Thomas Jefferson and has gone through many incarnations in its 200 yrs and has re-invented itself as a right-leaning scandal rag in the 1980's) had on its front page today a mile-high headline in screaming black print: "IRAQI DEAL--BUSH GETS CONSTITUTION PACT"--pg 8" then you open up the story and find out that the "deal" was getting the discussion on Federalism put off until December. Without mentioning that it was only the Kurds and Shiites who were even talking to each other at that point at all. And the Bush call was Thurs night, before things really went to hell.

Nice..he can appear to have brokered a compromise, while in reality, it was the opposite. Well, some Republicans in Congress are privately warning Bush that Evengelical Christian support not only for the war but for Congressional candidates could erode next year if Sharia factors too much into the Constitution draft that is passed. And if the US media continue to be total dickheads and not print the full version (so far eventhe NY Times has offered maybe one-third of the document) you can damn well bet someone in that camp will go to a high-placed miltary source or something and demand the full document for the Christian websites. This is an ideological war for them, as well as an anti-terrorist one, remember. )

I think it's a crock of BS. The US media has planted the December deadline for electing the permenent Iraqi gov't in our heads, and Bush is swearing by that date. he dare not seek to delay it; or flip-flop he has next yr's Congressional elections in mind. And the gov;t can't be put in place without a constitution. So the Oct 15 deadline for the referendum can't be put off later than Nov, and if the Sunnis' aren't on board now, they'll vote no on the damn thing. Which means the gov't is gone. Sayonara.

I still stand by that wonderful Washington Post article from 5 or 6 days back, "Miltias Hold Sway In Iraq North and South" which tells of extensive insurgent penetration of the police forces. It;s still up on their site, under "top 10 Most emiled articles." In addition, many police chiefs in many towms are in contact with their respective politcal parties and are already carrying out "Payback time" agendas. I wonder how many Kurds in Iraq are informing their brethren in the Kurdish diaspora (which, is heavily concentrated in America, and is funding a lot fo the construction there..like the Jewish lobby did in the first 10 yrs of Israel's existence) aobut the Abu-Gharib like informal netwrok of jails into which increasing nimber sof non-Kurds are diappearing these days. Again, the Wash post article talks about this.

Thanks for the heads-up on the scholar, All I Want. He's Turkish..my bad. I told you I was out of touch with the news over there for a couple of months, but there's no excuse. Esp as I know who this guy is. So he got to take some CD's but not books?? I wonder what was on the CD's???!?! IN addition to the politcs, the intellectual property laws are horrendous over there!! The politcs aobut what was in the books and his mission, I mean. I'm glad a compromise was worked out..but I have to say, I have alotof respevt for this guy, he seems level-headed and a man of integrity. I hope this experience does not color his opinion of us. Robert Kocharian is not universally loved by us either. He IS an idiot. But the people arent... (grudges and all).

I also feel I should clarify what I said about my opinions about a Kurdish State yesterday. Part of me thinks, "Just give some stateless tribes a bunch of borders, their own flag and currency, etc, and they'll shut the heck up and be happy." One criticial difference between the Kurds and the Armenians is, we have a hisotry as being a territorial state, quite an old one, actually, thousnadsof yrs old, and even though that state has shrunken, it' still state. We have a cultural memory having been a distinct politcal entity. The Kurds however (to my knowledge) have not had a state. I don't claim to be anything other then an armchair general (or generaless?) whne it comes to ME politics, so I can't say just exactly when the Kurds took it upon themselves that they should unite into a country. With the Palestinans, you know who and when. Arafat used the Israeli model to build a "national "Palestinian identity. I understand now that even archeology over there has been poisoned by this, the Palestinains are now trying tp prove they are the descendants of the Philistines and Jebusites, who owned Jeruslame, before David paid a visit...it's insane. But I'll wager the Jews knew who they were for a longer time than the Palestinians ever did. But does that guaruntee sovereignity? NOPE, not always....Sometimes, it's persectution or percieved persecution tht binds people together. But..the problem with borders often is, "give them an inch and they'll take a yard." ESP if they have cultural issues.

For example, one of the main reasons that Armenians are so up in arms about Nagorno-Karabagh is they Armenian cultural inheritance of the area. Never mind the present-day Azeri inhabitants, to the guerillas they are only a threat as other peoples have had a historyof destroying Armenian buildings, esp churches in the near past..*ahem*. It's a trust issue at this point, and unfortunately, many people have "NEVER AGAIN" written across their foreheads in blood, and it has become a poison...there are dozens of archeological sites that Armenians claim as territial sovereignity, much as many Jews have Biblical claims about Gaza, etc. Specifically, a network of churches that date back to the 400's AD. One of these churches in the eastern part of the place, close to the "undisputed" border with Azerbaijan, is according to tradition the place where the revered Armenian liguist and historian, Moses of Khorene, and his team of monks invented the Armenian alphabet in the 430-'s-450's, as well as compsing a historty of ancient pagan Armenia. Of course the Church canonized him...religions have a funny way of doing that if they are closed linked with the political entitties in countries. Anybody who does something great like invent an alphabet is a saint...*sigh*. So you can see why a crazy idea like maintaining the Lachin Corridor is a good idea for the guerillas there.

Personally, I don't care who governs the place as long as the Armenian polulation..AND their archeological sites..are guarunted to be left in peace..but I guess there's not much chance of that now is there? God, I hate revenge...ANY side that practices it.....And I haven't even talked about the oil...or Uncle Joe Stalin's role in this.

It's a curious thing, when loose confederations of tribes go though the various stages of politcal, social and cultural evolution that ends at the right to have a flag. Again, I beleive that it is language that bands many persecuted peoples together inot one entity. Or anyway, unties them on the single issue of soveriegnity..form what I understand, inter-Kurdish infighting (when they aren't tangling with the outside world) is pretty vicious. there's a great story I read last year about a U.S. journalist who befriended a Kurdish journo and this guy took him into his house and they spent the whole night watching Kurdish-dubbed DVD's of the Godfather Trilogy. (hmm..what does "Bada Bing, you blow his brains all over your nice Ivy League shirt" translate into Kurdish?). The Kurdish guy spent the entire time pointing out which corrupt Kurdish politcian or other prominent person was the Sollozzo figure, who was Sonny, who was Don Barzini, etc etc.) Unfortunately, no names were included in the article, of course.

Boy, would I have wanted to be in on that marathon DVD viewing, and if they had filled in the blanks in a similar way with Iraqi politicans, I'd have PAID to be there!

As to the deadline...it's all over, folks. Sunday is it.

What this whole thing needs is the equivalent of a Mandela figure. The Palestinains--and ideally, the Iraqis..can only hope to achive anything like their golas with such a figure. The situation in SA was just as vicous as in Iraq. The ethnic English and the Dutch colonizers (the Boer descendants) fighting each other, and only banding togehter to fight the ethnic native blacks. A half-doezen Black tribes fighting each other and unting only in their oppostion to the oppressive whites. The whole country was a powder keg ready to explode in a dozen different ways. The ANC at war internally too. But Mandela was big enough to rise above it all. He was able to convice the blacks, who were tasting bloood politcally and literally with the prosective "one man, one vote" that revenge was not only NOT in the cards in the new SA, but that it would hinder the nation's devlopment. If he could not get the blacks to forgive, at least nody would go on a rampage and terrorize whites. There would be no old scores swttled, except at the ballot box. And his being albe to convinvce De Kerk and the sullen whites that not only woukd they nned not fear for their lives and livelihoods, that they'd have an important role to play as well. That they'd not only be needed but wanted. Of course, things are never so rosy, but he was able to make it work. The only way the Palestinians can ever hope to follow the SA model, like they want to, and have a state ("one man, one vote" is THE great explosive unutterred issue for the Jews there, but it's constantly on Palestinaia lips..they know they have the demographic advantage, long-term) is by producing a lkeader with enough moral force to unte all. The Jews can try to produce a leader, but the new Sa could only work if it was the demographic majority that saw themselves as territorially displaced producing a figure. And let's not forget Mandel'as National Truth and Forgiveness Commission ..THAT"s what we need in Iraq, but instead, we have idiots outlawing parties.

There's no surer way to make a party "cool" for future generations than an offical gov't law banning it. I think the US produced that one, really. Who can guaruntee the Shiities won't produce a party even worse?

All I Want, let me say somethinbg else. From events on the ground, it may look to you like the U.S. supports a Kurdish state. From day one I believed they only "supported" them insomuch as they kept northern Iraq free from terrorist chaos. But in the end, they are loyal to their NATO ally. REALPOLITIK. The Kurds will find out in the end what the U.S. is really made of, and it will break their hearts. B/c ironically, they believed in us from the first...they were the only ones.
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Old 08-27-2005, 04:26 PM   #67
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PS. I may as well tell you where my moniker comes from. I'm a huge Star Wars fan (of the "I saw the first one in 1977 when I was a kid"--specifically, I was 7, variety) and before I found this site I used to post on one of the major Sw sites. Empress Teta is a character from the Star Wars Extended Universe (the world of the novels), who lived 10,000 yrs before the present SW takes place and controlled the system of 7 planets that first produced hyperdrive technology. You did NOT mess around with Empress T....but since this was a U2 site I had to throw in the "40", too....
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