Conservative Christians put warning label on Spongebob video... - Page 18 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-25-2005, 10:22 AM   #256
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Wow, we have Jesus on the board. For I can't think of anyone else who can make such a statement about a universal held Christian belief.

It's not a universally held Christian belief, but thanks for trying and speaking for the world's Christians.
I'd gladly ready anything you can show which says Christians should indeed hate sinners.
__________________

__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 10:24 AM   #257
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino



I didn't bring your name into the discussion, someone else did.

Still, I do appreciate you using the Episcopal example of just how much some Christians can love a sinner, thanks !
I appreciate you too.....

But there is a difference between someone using my beliefs as an example, and someone claiming I was called out on something and had nothing to back it up.

You are close to behaving like a troll in this thread as far as I am concerned. You misrepresented the dialogue between NBC and myself and have yet to come up with anything other than lumping my church into the people who are not properly carrying out Christianity.
__________________

__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 10:40 AM   #258
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,693
Local Time: 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino


I'd gladly ready anything you can show which says Christians should indeed hate sinners.
Not what I said, and you know that. I said what you are defining as sin is not a universal belief.

You're twisting words, avoiding questions, and contradicting yourself. So really you're wasting everyone's time unless you learn how to really debate.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 01-25-2005, 10:41 AM   #259
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 10:38 PM
I think we're forgetting something in all of this. I don't particularly care what specific Christian denominations believe in regards to homosexuality. I don't care what non-Christians care about it either.

Theology aside, there's one thing they're forgetting: homosexuality is not a theory, it is not a theology, it is a FACT. If we are to start legislating discrimination on the basis of what certain conservative religions believe, then why not go all the way?

Many conservative Protestants (Bob Jones III of Bob Jones University is a good example) believe that Roman Catholicism is Satanic. If it's true, then why don't we ban it? Others believe that the only place for women is at home making babies and the New Testament has a clear admonition against women having teaching authority over men....meaning, of course, that female teachers are bad. So why don't we ban that?

Or, if we are going to start digging up Biblical admonitions against women and homosexuals, why don't we start digging up some of the economic pronouncements? Remember Jubilee 2000? It was loosely based on a pronouncement that all debts must be forgiven every 50 years. Boy...would all the supply-siders be pissed off then!

Or why don't I go to the flip side. Roman Catholicism does not recognize any marriage outside of Catholic ones performed within its own church. I would say that, as a Catholic, it is their moral duty to tell all the heretical non-Catholics that they are living in sin with their invalid marriages and bastard children. Likewise, divorce is another "no-no." The legalization of divorce is yet another example of the global "culture of death."

And sure. I love the sinner and hate the sin all the time. Every time I see another sinner lying about the nature of homosexuals and homosexuality, I realize that their unforgiven sin of bearing false witness is just yet another ticket to hell for them. I pray every day that conservative Christians will wake up and realize the truth.

If it is not morally correct to discriminate against Protestants, Catholics, Jews, blacks, and women, it is not morally correct to discriminate against homosexuals. Period. It is the right of every individual to formulate their own morals and ethics, free from others' morality and ethics. You can pretend that homosexuals do not exist (just as I like to pretend that heterosexuals don't exist), but it ignores one clear fact: they do exist.

As for the Bible being an admonition against homosexuality, I disagree. It is no more an admonition against homosexuality than it is a sweeping admonition against heterosexuality. The word and concept of "homosexuality" did not exist until 1874, so any Bible that implicitly or explicitly uses that word is bearing false witness. Period.

The Bible does show examples of destructive same-sex and opposite sex behavior, but how such "destruction" is interpreted is wide. I can show you one very explicit example, as you might be surprised to realize that there is a heterosexual analogue to Sodom and Gomorrah:

Quote:
"While they were enjoying themselves, the men of the city, who were corrupt, surrounded the house and beat on the door. They said to the old man whose house it was, "Bring out your guest, that we may abuse him."

The owner of the house went out to them and said, "No, my brothers; do not be so wicked. Since this man is my guest, do not commit this crime.

Rather let me bring out my maiden daughter or his concubine. Ravish them, or do whatever you want with them; but against the man you must not commit this wanton crime."

When the men would not listen to his host, the husband seized his concubine and thrust her outside to them. They had relations with her and abused her all night until the following dawn, when they let her go.

Then at daybreak the woman came and collapsed at the entrance of the house in which her husband was a guest, where she lay until the morning.

When her husband rose that day and opened the door of the house to start out again on his journey, there lay the woman, his concubine, at the entrance of the house with her hands on the threshold.

He said to her, "Come, let us go"; but there was no answer. So the man placed her on an ass and started out again for home.

On reaching home, he took a knife to the body of his concubine, cut her into twelve pieces, and sent them throughout the territory of Israel.

Everyone who saw this said, "Nothing like this has been done or seen from the day the Israelites came up from the land of Egypt to this day. Take note of it, and state what you propose to do." -- Judges 19:22-30
Notice the biggest difference between Sodom and Gomorrah and Gibeah: in Sodom and Gomorrah, a homosexual gang rape supposedly takes place. In Gibeah, a heterosexual gang rape supposedly takes place. But the reactions to contemporary audiences (if they even bother to know that Judges 19 exists) would be that Sodom and Gomorrah is a sweeping admonition against homosexuality, while Gibeah is an example of a heterosexual rape. Of course, these passages are neither: the sin, as stated in about 3 or 4 different places in the Old Testament is a violation against hospitality customs, not sex. But if "sex" is to be involved, there is one clear admonition: God does not approve of rape.

Do realize that every supposed sweeping generalization against homosexuality takes on two characteristics in the Bible:

1) It is either done in the context of idol worship, or

2) It is done in the context of rape.

I would think that we can all agree that idolatry and rape are wrong. Unfortunately, just as people now have fears and prejudices against homosexuals, they had them then 2000 years ago. It certainly doesn't mean it was right then, and it certainly doesn't mean it is right now.

I will take a clear stand against any conservative Christian who wishes to make a sweeping generalization about homosexuals or homosexuality, because it is plain wrong. It is wrong to abuse the Bible to justify fears and prejudices, just as it is wrong to defame homosexuals with lies to justify Biblical abuse.

If people would take the time to combat poverty with the same vigor as they do to fight abortion or gay rights, we would be a lot closer to eliminating poverty. As it stands, I think that the priorities of many Christians are very off base.

But, as they say, "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 10:44 AM   #260
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 03:38 AM
I can't remember where I saw this, whose sermon it was, but I kept it anyway for future reference:

"As we study the life of Christ, his attitudes about sin and sinners are made very clear to us. It is obvious that Jesus hates sin. On the other hand, it is quite apparent that Jesus loves sinners. He was often seen in the company of sinners, not for the purpose of participating in their sins, but rather to offer them forgiveness of sins. He hated sin yet loved sinners so much that he came to earth to offer himself as a sacrifice for sin (John 3:16). The old law demanded a life of sinless perfection. Jesus met that demand. He was tempted in all points just as we are, yet never sinned (Hebrews 4:15). He thus nailed the law to the cross (Colossians 2:14). He took it out of the way and gave us the new covenant in its place. The requirement of sinless perfection was replaced with the requirement of a faith response to Jesus. This faith response not only includes belief in Jesus, but obedience to everything he commands us. True Bible faith is not passive, it is active. It requires action in the form of obedience.

We live in a sinful world. We live in a world filled with the sin that Jesus hates. Today’s world is filled with sinners. We live in a world of sinners whom Jesus loves. We must make our attitudes toward sin and sinners the same as those of Jesus. We must hate the sin and love the sinner.

Some of today’s sins are being promoted by national leaders in the name of progress, open-mindedness, or social reform. Two of these sins are particularly repulsive to Christians: abortion and homosexuality. These are promoted in the name of freedom of choice and alternative life-styles. Both of these sins are condemned in the Bible. Abortion is nothing short of murder (see Exodus 21). It is not just a matter of a woman’s choice. Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible (see Romans 1). This very sin was responsible for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (see Genesis 19).

The point is this: Christians must hate these two sins in no uncertain terms. However, we must love the sinners. We should not even think of doing them bodily harm. We must make every effort to change their thinking by teaching them what God’s word plainly says about these matters.

It is obvious as we mention these unmentionable subjects that some Christians hate the sins, as they should. But they also hate the sinners! This attitude must be changed. This is not the attitude of Jesus!
Hate the sin, but love the sinner!"
__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 10:49 AM   #261
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Many conservative Protestants (Bob Jones III of Bob Jones University is a good example) believe that Roman Catholicism is Satanic. If it's true, then why don't we ban it?
Many... how many? Anything to back this up?
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 10:59 AM   #262
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Many... how many? Anything to back this up?
Sure. Do a Google search, and, plus, here's a good text by the Catholic League:

http://www.catholicleague.org/resear...t_internet.htm

I don't always agree with the Catholic League (they are far too conservative for my liking), but they were founded to combat anti-Catholic sentiment that is a hallmark of American cultural history.

An example of something offline is a local Baptist church (and I know that Baptist churches are locally-administered, so I am not saying that this is true of ALL Baptists) that claimed that Catholics lust for the blood of Jesus by hanging a crucifix and called them "cannibals" for believing in transubstantiation, which believes that the bread and wine are physically transformed into the body and blood of Jesus Christ, versus the Protestant view (formulated by Martin Luther) that Jesus is merely spiritually present in the bread and wine.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 11:04 AM   #263
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,693
Local Time: 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Many... how many? Anything to back this up?
Oh your in for a treat Mac.

Welcome back Melon.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 01-25-2005, 11:07 AM   #264
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 10:38 PM
[Q]This very sin was responsible for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (see Genesis 19).
[/Q]

Sorry...homosexuality was not the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Play it again Sam.....

This example is getting old.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 11:08 AM   #265
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 10:38 PM
My prayers have been answered......

May they not be short lived!

Welcome back Melon.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 11:17 AM   #266
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino
Some of today’s sins are being promoted by national leaders in the name of progress, open-mindedness, or social reform. Two of these sins are particularly repulsive to Christians: abortion and homosexuality. These are promoted in the name of freedom of choice and alternative life-styles. Both of these sins are condemned in the Bible. Abortion is nothing short of murder (see Exodus 21). It is not just a matter of a woman’s choice. Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible (see Romans 1). This very sin was responsible for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (see Genesis 19).
The last sentence merely substantiates my last point. The writer of this article ignores the lessons of Gibeah, which was equally destroyed for the gang rape of a female concubine. Is this now a sweeping admonition against ALL heterosexual activity?

Romans 1 also goes back to my original point. It is the description of a pagan cult ritual [and the original Greek gives that away, rather than biased English translations] that was very common in the Roman Empire; hence, idolatry. Secondly, though, the writer ignores that Romans 1 is merely the preamble for the lesson spelled out in Romans 2:

Quote:
"Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment [against those in Romans 1]. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.--Romans 2:1
All Pauline epistles are easily, easily misinterpreted, as the beginning of all Pauline epistles are merely to appeal to the sensibilities of those he is trying to convert; which, in the case of Romans, are the Jewish Christians of Rome. The true lesson of Romans is not the first chapter. On the contrary, St. Paul rejects the legalism on which Jewish Christians judge others in favor of the pillar of all Pauline theology:

Quote:
"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law."--Romans 13:8-10
Just because "Christians" (and I take great offense to the monopolization of that term by conservatives) feel "repulsed" by homosexuality, does not mean it was ever a Biblical priority. Instead, it is merely abusing the Bible to justify prejudice. The Book of Exodus was once used to justify slavery prior to the Civil War; and St. Paul's clear misogyny was once evoked to try and prevent women's suffrage prior to 1920.

And I stick to my original point: the prejudice and discrimination against homosexuals is unequivocably and morally wrong.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 11:21 AM   #267
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by cardosino
We must make every effort to change their thinking by teaching them what God’s word plainly says about these matters.
This "hate the sin, love the sinner" line just keeps getting better. So you mean as well as this fake love, I'll be treated to neverending lectures on "God's word"? Man, I can hardly wait.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 11:23 AM   #268
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 10:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
My prayers have been answered......

May they not be short lived!

Welcome back Melon.
I am working my best to be constructive and to choose my battles carefully. Additionally, I am working my best to never ever construct a personal attack again. God willing, I shall find the strength to write effectively.

I will also never let conservatives dictate the agenda. Never again. That is my lesson from the last election: if you expect your values and beliefs to win out, you must unequivocably believe them to be true. No more postmodernist wishy-washy political correctness. There's clear "right" and "wrong," and I am going to do my best to show that liberal values are the correct ones.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 11:23 AM   #269
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Macfistowannabe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,129
Local Time: 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Oh your in for a treat Mac.

Welcome back Melon.
Asking someone to provide a source is not insinuating that I strongly disagree with them. Perhaps Melon has made a valid point by answering my question. By the way Melon, thanks for the response.
__________________
Macfistowannabe is offline  
Old 01-25-2005, 11:26 AM   #270
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,693
Local Time: 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Asking someone to provide a source is not insinuating that I strongly disagree with them. Perhaps Melon has made a valid point by answering my question. By the way Melon, thanks for the response.
I said you're in a treat, that's it, let's not read anything into it.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com