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Old 01-25-2005, 02:20 AM   #241
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Originally posted by cardosino

So, first off, you make the sweeping generalization, then you follow it up with "it's not possible to prove it" - I guess if It's not possible to prove it, i'm wondering how you could be so convinced of it to begin with.
You didn't ask for *any* evidence to support my statement - you asked for "empirical evidence." And as I pointed out, I wonder how you propose to go about obtaining empirical evidence of emotions. Perhaps you could explain the form of evidence you're looking for.

And how can I be so convinced of it? I couldn't claim to love someone if I hated something which was a vital part of who they were. It's not like saying "I love you but I don't like the fact that you smoke." Sexuality isn't simply an action, it's not a choice, it's not simply one little part of someone's life you can like or dislike - it's a huge part of who they are and if you hate that then you can't at the same time claim that you love that person.
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Old 01-25-2005, 07:07 AM   #242
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I find it interesting that you (and others) seem to think everyone should do as your Jesus and God said (or what their followers think they said, or want them to have said, or whatever), but them you complain when someone else makes what you call a "sweeping generalisation." You don't think that saying "homosexuality is a sin" isn't pretty damned sweeping?
Would you feel better if I prefaced it with "in the Christian belief system" every time ? Sometimes things are a given and we've heard them a million times, and to avoid sounding repetitive and tellign everyone what hey already know for the bazillionth time I didn't qualify my statement. My apologies.

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I don't care what your god thinks about homosexuality, or marriage,


Well, then maybe any thread with gay mariage is a possible danger to your blood pressure !


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Originally posted by indra


what I want to know is why gay marriages should not be allowed in a SECULAR nation?

I don't have any issue with gay mariage myself, civil unions are already permitted in many places and they already afford many of the same rights (yes, I know, not all). Gay marriage doesn't affect me one iota, so if you're asking me, I don't know. If it's rhetorical, I just wanted a minute of my time !

I can still believe homosexuality is sinful (according to the Christian belief system of course) and really not have any issue with it. Adultery is also considered sinful and I'm not campaigning against that either. It's a question of priorities maybe. I think the whole gay marriage thing is a straw man argument designed by the republicans to win votes because they know the democratic party is too stupid to counter it intelligently and/or to divert discussion to more meaningful topics like say, the war or the economy.




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If you don't want to recognise same sex marriages in your church, that's just peachy, you don't have to, but what do you get out of preventing same sex civil marriages? I don't tell you what you can and cannot do within your church.
You would have a say if you were a member.

However, since all Christians (regardless of how far left or right they lean) are members of the "civil" society, they also get a say, and if the majority says "no" to gay marriage as they have done in many places, then that's the result of the democratic process. at that ime, doesn't mean yuo give up, rather you live on and fight another day.
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Old 01-25-2005, 07:10 AM   #243
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


You didn't ask for *any* evidence to support my statement - you asked for "empirical evidence." And as I pointed out, I wonder how you propose to go about obtaining empirical evidence of emotions. Perhaps you could explain the form of evidence you're looking for.

As an Engineer, I find that the best data/evidence is that which is not oopen to interpretation or subjectivity. You may feel differently apparently.

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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees

And how can I be so convinced of it? I couldn't claim to love someone if I hated something which was a vital part of who they were. It's not like saying "I love you but I don't like the fact that you smoke." Sexuality isn't simply an action, it's not a choice, it's not simply one little part of someone's life you can like or dislike - it's a huge part of who they are and if you hate that then you can't at the same time claim that you
love that person.

All subjective opinion, not one fact in there.

Using the sam erationale, I say you CAN hate the sin and love the sinner, because the belief system is strong enough to handle it. If you believed the same things, you'd know what I mean.
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Old 01-25-2005, 07:20 AM   #244
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Originally posted by indra
I find it interesting that you (and others) seem to think everyone should do as your Jesus and God said (or what their followers think they said, or want them to have said, or whatever), but them you complain when someone else makes what you call a "sweeping generalisation." You don't think that saying "homosexuality is a sin" isn't pretty damned sweeping?


If I said making false statements was a sin, wouldn't that be a sweeping generalization as well?
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Old 01-25-2005, 08:37 AM   #245
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Originally posted by cardosino
Would you feel better if I prefaced it with "in the Christian belief system" every time ?
No, because at least one poster (thank you dreadsox) has already pointed out that this isn't a universally held Christian belief. "In my belief system" might be more appropriate.
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Old 01-25-2005, 08:42 AM   #246
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Originally posted by cardosino
As an Engineer, I find that the best data/evidence is that which is not oopen to interpretation or subjectivity. You may feel differently apparently.
As a social science student, I would question whether any evidence in the social sciences (which this discussion would certainly fall under) can be entirely objective and not open to interpretation. I certainly don't believe that you could provide "empirical evidence" of people's emotions or feelings, which is what you were demanding.
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Old 01-25-2005, 08:47 AM   #247
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If I said making false statements was a sin, wouldn't that be a sweeping generalization as well?
So, do Christians believe that making false statements is always a sin, regardless of the circumstance? Would it be a sin to lie to prevent someone finding out about a suprise birthday party? Would it be a sin to lie to prevent someone being hurt? And is there some sort of grading for this - I mean presumably lying on your tax returns is a bit worse than lying about your age to someone you meet in the pub?
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Old 01-25-2005, 09:25 AM   #248
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


No, because at least one poster (thank you dreadsox) has already pointed out that this isn't a universally held Christian belief. "In my belief system" might be more appropriate.
Actually, it IS a universally held Christian belief system. Like the rest of the world's population, Christians are by no means perfect so it's not always carried out properly.

Dreadsox was not able to support his assertion either when called on it. by nbcrusader.
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Old 01-25-2005, 09:41 AM   #249
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Originally posted by cardosino


Actually, it IS a universally held Christian belief system. Like the rest of the world's population, Christians are by no means perfect so it's not always carried out properly.
Wow, we have Jesus on the board. For I can't think of anyone else who can make such a statement about a universal held Christian belief.

It's not a universally held Christian belief, but thanks for trying and speaking for the world's Christians.
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Old 01-25-2005, 09:46 AM   #250
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Originally posted by cardosino


Actually, it IS a universally held Christian belief system. Like the rest of the world's population, Christians are by no means perfect so it's not always carried out properly.

Dreadsox was not able to support his assertion either when called on it. by nbcrusader.
I'm sorry, were you the same person who just complained about others making sweeping generalisations? The words pot, kettle and black come to mind.

So any Christian who isn't homophobic is failing to carry out their proper Christian responsibilities?
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Old 01-25-2005, 09:58 AM   #251
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Originally posted by cardosino


Actually, it IS a universally held Christian belief system. Like the rest of the world's population, Christians are by no means perfect so it's not always carried out properly.

Dreadsox was not able to support his assertion either when called on it. by nbcrusader.
Say what????? Did I miss something????

I was called on something?

or are you standing up and saying that the Episcopal Church is wrong for having a Gay Bishop and a Lesbian Priest?

I would appreciate if you have something to say about my beliefs you try not stirring the pot between myself and another member. NBC and I are pretty secure in our respect for each other.

If youwish to call me out on it....GO FOR IT. I await eagerly.
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:02 AM   #252
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I'm sorry, were you the same person who just complained about others making sweeping generalisations? The words pot, kettle and black come to mind.
They may come to mind, but they're not being used properly. Here, let me try and explain it differently:

"All Christians are homophobic" - Sweeping Generalization

"It's not possible to hate sin and love the sinner" - Sweeping Generalization

"All Christians are not perfect" - A Fact

"Some Christians are homophobic despite the fact they are not supposed to be" - Fact

"Christianity teaches us to love sinners" - Fact


Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


So any Christian who isn't homophobic is failing to carry out their proper Christian responsibilities?
By Jove, I think the Youngster has got it !

homophobic: Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

Again, hate the sin, love the sinner.

Now, you have to open your mind and believe that it is indeed possible to hate the sin and love the sinner, if not, then you are no more open minded than those Christians who would be burning homosexuals at the stake.
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:10 AM   #253
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


Say what????? Did I miss something????

I was called on something?

or are you standing up and saying that the Episcopal Church is wrong for having a Gay Bishop and a Lesbian Priest?

I would appreciate if you have something to say about my beliefs you try not stirring the pot between myself and another member. NBC and I are pretty secure in our respect for each other.

If youwish to call me out on it....GO FOR IT. I await eagerly.

I didn't bring your name into the discussion, someone else did.

Still, I do appreciate you using the Episcopal example of just how much some Christians can love a sinner, thanks !
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:14 AM   #254
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If you go back and look at NBC post in response to me...unless I am missing something, he does not view the TOPIC of homosexuality to be a CORE principle of Christianity.

How I am supposed to "suuport my assertion" against a statement of his?

He did not imply as you did, that my church is not carrying out Christianity properly. He asserted in principal we have the same CORE belifs.


If I am missing what you are referring to, then please, quote it for me.
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:17 AM   #255
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Originally posted by cardosino

By Jove, I think the Youngster has got it !

homophobic: Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.

Again, hate the sin, love the sinner.

Now, you have to open your mind and believe that it is indeed possible to hate the sin and love the sinner, if not, then you are no more open minded than those Christians who would be burning homosexuals at the stake.
Condescending wanker.

How about you opening your mind and thinking about how it feels to hear someone claiming they love you while at the same time hating you for living your life the only way you know how. How about opening your mind and realising that you can't separate someone's sexuality as just one aspect of that person you can hate - it's not like you can hate someone's choice to smoke, choice to take drugs or choice to eat particular foods and still love them - sexuality isn't a choice, it's not something you can separate out and hate while still loving the person.
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