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Old 01-23-2005, 03:57 PM   #181
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Originally posted by Do Miss America


Actually that wouldn't be a mute point. That would mean God would be creating sin, given your definition.
Well, Satan came up with sin and Adam and Eve gave into it, sort of injecting it into the human bloodline if you will.
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Old 01-23-2005, 03:59 PM   #182
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I love how people have tried to turn liberal into a bad word.
I love it, I'm proud of it, in fact I'm gonna make shirts and sell them.
Liberal means open minded it doesn't always mean decadent crazy over the top behavior. Jesus was a liberal...or wait maybe he was for big tax cuts and guided missiles. Maybe I'm wrong.
Maybe Jesus is a CEO.
Have to go rethink my life be back later.
Go Eagles!!!!!
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Old 01-23-2005, 04:00 PM   #183
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Macfistowannabe;

I, too, would hope there is more to human relationships than pro-creation, hence my rebuttal.

"Those who choose not to have children, for whatever reason, as long as they would give unwanted children away for adoption and such if they became pregnant, I can understand that. Couples who can't have children, I would think, would adopt children even if they aren't the natural parents."

Well, yes - but these are rather sweeping generalisations, when you consider that society is made up of individuals with individual problems. You could understand couples who didn't want children 'only' if they gave away unwanted children? Well, that would inherently be the reason why they have chosen not to pro-create in the first place. My point is that you can not take Marriage equals children as a golden rule, it does not fit the facts of a modern society.

"There IS more than inseminating people, it's showing them love, compassion, moral principles, and obedience. However, I do believe that instead of stating the profound, unproven "born gay" propaganda, give someone hope that they can find relief through medicines, counseling, and faith. How can you believe in miracles if you believe that people cannot overcome obstacles?"

Well, if you choose to believe that homosexuality is an obstacle, then of course your logic would follow. Would you give someone hope that they can find relief through medicines, counseling and faith to get them over their need to divorce? I don't know what miracles have to do with homosexuality, but I assume that you based it on a religious argument (correct me if I'm wrong), if so, there are problems with these. Some religious sins are not considered as such in the eyes of a modern society (at least, not by many), at least, not any more.

"They have their views, and I have mine. They are hypocritical as well, they do not practice the "tolerance" they preach of, and rather, label conservatives as "bigots", "homophobes", and "hateful". The activists have me convinced that they are every bit as hypocritical as Dobson."

Activists are many things, passionate is usually one of them. While I agree that it makes some arguments less convincing, I also agree that its hard to be objective when your rights are being compromised, and you are being afforded a second-rate existence.

Ant.
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Old 01-23-2005, 04:01 PM   #184
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It's very sad that 'liberal' is fequently taken to mean 'sissy commie' and 'conservative' interpreted as 'Nazi bastard'.

It sucks.
That's my only glimmer of wisdom for today.
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Old 01-23-2005, 04:04 PM   #185
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shart1780;

In saying that you accept them, that you would never turn them away and that you would be their friend, despite what may come afterwards (for it is, I believe, only for God to judge), you are talking about your conduct in the here and now - in THIS lifetime.

If this is the case, what about their rights, here and now, in THIS lifetime? Legislating their rights would be, according to your beleifs, encouraging a sin, but would it be more destructive than, say, letting the law to allow divorce? Divorce, I repeat, STILL considered a sin by many churches.

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Old 01-23-2005, 04:04 PM   #186
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i've been lurking in this thread since it started, but i have to throw this into the discussion:

if we are all sinners, and there is no degree of sin, wouldn't it be best if we all just worried about our own sins and stopped making such a big hullabaloo about what we perceive to be other people's sins?

(not that i'm christian or think homosexuality is a sin, i just can't help but wonder why there's such a fixation on other people's private lives)
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Old 01-23-2005, 04:12 PM   #187
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
shart1780;

In saying that you accept them, that you would never turn them away and that you would be their friend, despite what may come afterwards (for it is, I believe, only for God to judge), you are talking about your conduct in the here and now - in THIS lifetime.

If this is the case, what about their rights, here and now, in THIS lifetime? Legislating their rights would be, according to your beleifs, encouraging a sin, but would it be more destructive than, say, letting the law to allow divorce? Divorce, I repeat, STILL considered a sin by many churches.

Ant.
I don't really understand what you meant in the first paragraph.

As far as I know, the Bible says divorce is fine when either of the spouses commits adultry. I'm not a huge expert on this cause it's never really came close to affecting me, but that's my understanding of it. I've always been taught this. There's actually alot of things I think should be made illegal that a ton of people would call me crazy for (aka the illegalization of alcohol).
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Old 01-23-2005, 04:19 PM   #188
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What I meant in my first paragraph, shart1780, is that you seem to make a distinction in that you know what may happen to them for their sins, but you do, within your definition, tolerate them. I wanted to know how you tolerated divorce, to serve as a comparison.

Divorce depends on who you talk to; lots say that the Bible doesn't like it while others say the reverse. We are back to an age-old problem when dealing with the Bible; interpretation.

My question is, should the Bible have any bearing on the way we formulate laws? Yes, for Catholics, divorce is a sin - but it is not illegal to divorce someone. Somewhere along the line a distinction was made between what is considered right in the Bible and what is considered right in society, especially if the society is a secular one, as the USA is supposed to be.

To put it bluntly; is there any other basis in creating inequalities in society, just because a few quotations from the Bible don't like it?

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Old 01-23-2005, 04:29 PM   #189
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780

There's actually alot of things I think should be made illegal that a ton of people would call me crazy for (aka the illegalization of alcohol).
Interesting, forcing communion to be underground. Hmmm
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Old 01-23-2005, 04:35 PM   #190
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I can't imagine having so much time to worry about so little, as a cartoon sponge. And then more mind-boggling is the fact that a human being with supposedly a brain, thinks a cartoon sponge is "gay." Maybe they worried Sponge Bob will marry that purple Teletubby that Falwell was so concerned about, and it would be a cartoon "gay wedding."

The world is going to hell in a hand basket, but leave it to the brainless to not care.

I wouldn't want to be anything but "liberal," it's the only way I would ever want to live, here is the dictionary definition:

Tolerant. Open minded. Favoring progress. Generosity.

Without us liberals, there would be no Civil Rights Act, no equality for women, no voting rights for women, no Social Security/Medicare/Unemployment, no schooling for all, etc.

Conservative definition: Resist change. Preserve what is established: conditions, and institutions. Traditional in style of manner.
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Old 01-23-2005, 04:37 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally posted by shart1780


I've always been taught this.
I think you said everything, here

That was reason enough for me until I reached my late teens and early twenties

I am 49 now.

Many of the things I was taught seemed to make sense at that time


but, upon further examination and study I have had to let them go.

That does not mean I don't care about my old friends and family.
If they still stay with the prevailing orthodoxy

I am just able to come to my own conclusions based on my life experiences, observations and inquiries.
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Old 01-23-2005, 05:32 PM   #192
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I don't really want to get into a discussion on what sins should be legal and the like. I'm not too well equiped with biblical knowledge in this area. The reason I believe alcohol should be outlawed isn't just because of my beliefe in God, but ecause I think it's destructive to society as a whole, much more destructive than most of the drugs we outlaw.

I was basically just talking about the issue of if homosexuality as sin and what I believe, not gay marriage.
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Old 01-23-2005, 06:00 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


If you'll re-read my post you'll note that I commented on YOUR interpretation of Christianity, which as dread pointed out, is far fromt he only one.
Not only what we believe but how we believe it. You summarily dismiss "love the sinner, hate the sin". This is a core application for Christians.
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Old 01-23-2005, 06:22 PM   #194
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Not only what we believe but how we believe it. You summarily dismiss "love the sinner, hate the sin". This is a core application for Christians.
I agree with this.....but it depends on the approach.

And it is a core principle not just applied to homosexuality.
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Old 01-23-2005, 08:17 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
So you're not willing to give up your buzzwords, which could result in helping homosexuals better succeed in society? My God, I'm trying to HELP YOU OUT! Nobody wants to be compared to racists and homophobes, and NOBODY WILL LISTEN TO someone who makes that comparison. All I am saying is give up the vocabulary, it's very familiar to those who are comparing Bush to Hitler.
Well...sometimes the truth isn't nice to hear. Perhaps part of the reason it bothers you to hear it is because it rings true.
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