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Old 01-23-2005, 01:36 PM   #136
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
I don't even know what propaganda you're talking about, but I can tell you from my own experiences that the idea that you chose your sexuality is bullshit. You do not make a conscious choice "I will only like men/I will only like women."
Is it wrong to believe perhaps that there is a difference between someone experiencing homosexual feelings, and someone making a lifelong decision to go with those feelings, buy into the "born gay" line, compare conservatives to racists, and force your beliefs on them? It's like me trying to Christianize a Muslim. They have their beliefs, I have mine, true tolerance is accepting differences without calling people haters, bigots, and homophobes.
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Old 01-23-2005, 01:40 PM   #137
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We don't tell the Negroes we know of and tell them how we feel they are inferior. We ignore the differences, because otherwise, it's not friendly. It's like the pope meeting the Dali Llama. They would talk about their similarities, rather than their theological differences. Just because we believe there is a difference doesn't mean that we're the bigots you make us out to be.

There IS more than inseminating people, it's showing them love, compassion, moral principles, and obedience. However, I do believe that instead of stating the profound, unproven "born straight" propaganda, give someone hope that they can find relief through medicines, counseling, and faith. How can you believe in miracles if you believe that people cannot overcome obstacles?
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Old 01-23-2005, 01:44 PM   #138
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Yes, thanks for being real original.
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Old 01-23-2005, 01:45 PM   #139
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Is it wrong to believe perhaps that there is a difference between someone experiencing homosexual feelings, and someone making a lifelong decision to go with those feelings, buy into the "born gay" line, compare conservatives to racists, and force your beliefs on them? It's like me trying to Christianize a Muslim. They have their beliefs, I have mine, true tolerance is accepting differences without calling people haters, bigots, and homophobes.
In order of appearance:

1) So someone "experiencing homosexual feelings" as you so eloquently put it, they should just try to ignore this should they? Perhaps it's just a silly phase they're doing through and they'll grow out of it. But when they don't grow out of it, you'd expect them to do what exactly? Stay single for their whole life because it's sinful to act on their feelings? Pretend to be straight, go out with someone of the opposite sex, maybe get married, keep living a lie for the rest of their life?

How loving of you.

2) I compared homophobes to racists, though if what you mean is that there are plenty of homophobic conservatives I won't complain.

3) True tolerance is accepting differences...like accepting people's right to be racist? Like accepting people's right to think women are inferior to men? No thanks. I don't have to tolerate people's bigotry and I have no intention of doing so.
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Old 01-23-2005, 01:46 PM   #140
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I don't even know what propaganda you're talking about, but I can tell you from my own experiences that the idea that you chose your sexuality is bullshit. You do not make a conscious choice "I will only like men/I will only like women."

And I don't need your "hope" your "relief" your "medicines, counselling and faith." I don't need a "miracle." What I do need is for people to stop spewing the same homophobic nonsense that I've heard a thousand times over. What I do need is to not hear one more story of a fifteen year old kid getting bullied for being gay, one more story of a person disowned by their family because they don't like their sexuality, one more story of a person committing suicide because they can't cope with any more prejudice and bigotry.
Thank you. That post just infurated me and I knew if I had responded I probably would have been banned. You responded very well. Thanks.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:27 PM   #141
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Originally posted by Seeking Adam



There IS more than inseminating people, it's showing them love, compassion, moral principles, and obedience. However, I do believe that instead of stating the profound, unproven "born straight" propaganda, give someone hope that they can find relief through medicines, counseling, and faith. How can you believe in miracles if you believe that people cannot overcome obstacles?

i don't believe in miracles, but i do think people can overcome obstacles.

people get hung up on the born gay/straight thing. while the general consensus is that genetics play a very strong role in determining sexuality, it's pretty much besides the point. one's sexual orientation is 100% INVOLUNTARY, so it really doesn't matter if one were born gay or not. there's no choice involved, no conscious rejection of anything. it occurs, as naturally as any heterosexual's orientation occurs over the course of many years.

what the church should do is help its members accept who they are, love them no matter what, and provide them the resources they need to live life honestly, to embrace a naturally occurring difference, instead of promoting some fear-based "ex-gay" ministry industry which have been widely, widely debunked.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:29 PM   #142
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
True tolerance is accepting differences...like accepting people's right to be racist? Like accepting people's right to think women are inferior to men? No thanks. I don't have to tolerate people's bigotry and I have no intention of doing so.
Argh, FizzingW, you'll never quit with the whole racist generalization, will you? If you can't be real about having a rational discussion, there's no point in even trying. Again, I say true tolerance is accepting differences without calling people haters, bigots, and homophobes. You don't have to make outrageous remarks about century old examples to make a point. Perhaps if you want to proselytize people, perhaps a more caring and less pugnacious approach would help.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:32 PM   #143
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Originally posted by Irvine511
what the church should do is help its members accept who they are, love them no matter what, and provide them the resources they need to live life honestly, to embrace a naturally occurring difference, instead of promoting some fear-based "ex-gay" ministry industry which have been widely, widely debunked.
You have your free will, but how is that fear-based?
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:36 PM   #144
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I say true tolerance is accepting differences without calling people haters, bigots, and homophobes.
Or telling them they aren't normal. Look in a mirror lately?
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:40 PM   #145
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Argh, FizzingW, you'll never quit with the whole racist generalization, will you? If you can't be real about having a rational discussion, there's no point in even trying. Again, I say true tolerance is accepting differences without calling people haters, bigots, and homophobes. You don't have to make outrageous remarks about century old examples to make a point. Perhaps if you want to proselytize people, perhaps a more caring and less pugnacious approach would help.
What's irrational about comparing different forms of prejudice - such as racism and homophobia. As I explained before, both are based on ignorance, both are offensive and both are extremely harmful to the people being discriminated against.

So if true tolerance is accepting people's right to be homophobic, isn't it also accepting people's right to be racist?

And out of interest, what are these century old examples I'm supposed to have referred to?

Exactly how caring have you been throughout this discussion? Caring enough to condemn people for their sexuality? Caring enough to tell people they're living a life of sin? Caring enough to claim that gay people can "find relief" through some bizarre concoction of medicines (hey, perhaps if i take enough drugs next weekend i'll wake up straight, what d'ya think about that kids?) counselling ('yes, well, if you'll just find yourself a nice boyfriend everything will be all better') and faith (from the same church which apparently thinks i'm living in sin? what a laugh.).

My idea of caring is a bit different. It's being there when one of my friends phones me in the middle of the night upset because someone shouted homophobic abuse at her. It's talking to the fifteen year old kid getting bullied at school and trying to offer some sort of reassurance that there's something wrong with the bullies, not with them. I think I'd rather be on the receiving end of that sort of caring, rather than your strange version.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:46 PM   #146
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Originally posted by Do Miss America
Or telling them they aren't normal. Look in a mirror lately?
My point was that the activists aren't walking the walk either. They are every bit as hypocritical as Dobson is. And really, I don't tell people they aren't normal.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:56 PM   #147
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
What's irrational about comparing different forms of prejudice - such as racism and homophobia. As I explained before, both are based on ignorance, both are offensive and both are extremely harmful to the people being discriminated against.
You honestly think I want to listen to people who make this comparison on me? No, I'm going to think they're full of crap.

Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
[B]Exactly how caring have you been throughout this discussion? Caring enough to condemn people for their sexuality? Caring enough to tell people they're living a life of sin? Caring enough to claim that gay people can "find relief" through some bizarre concoction of medicines (hey, perhaps if i take enough drugs next weekend i'll wake up straight, what d'ya think about that kids?) counselling ('yes, well, if you'll just find yourself a nice boyfriend everything will be all better') and faith (from the same church which apparently thinks i'm living in sin? what a laugh.).
Let me help you out with your little cause, for example...

"This is James. He's a painter, and a very good one. He may not have everything in common with you, and that's okay. We just hope that you respect his differences, and he will do the same for you."

Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
My idea of caring is a bit different. It's being there when one of my friends phones me in the middle of the night upset because someone shouted homophobic abuse at her. It's talking to the fifteen year old kid getting bullied at school and trying to offer some sort of reassurance that there's something wrong with the bullies, not with them. I think I'd rather be on the receiving end of that sort of caring, rather than your strange version.
This is a better way of saying it, other than referring to me as "strange", it works out much better. Trust me, I'm sorry to hear of it. Really I do think it's awful that people can be so rude. I don't take conservative stances on issues because I am one of those people. I take them because I believe in who and what I'm voting for. If you can take the time to tell me apart from them, I would appreciate it.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:56 PM   #148
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Is this an effort to understand understand Christian belief, or is it a summary dismissal of Christian belief for what you believe is a summary dismissal of homosexuals?
NB, you know I have tremendous respect for you but I disagree.

It may be your denominations Christian beliefs, but to summarize Christian beliefs as being united on this issue is wrong.

I have spent the last six weeks organizing the ceremony that made my Priest in Charge our permanent rector. She is 100% the best minister I have ever had. She is a lesbian. Our Bishop, who is leading the diocese is Gay and is pushing hard for us to get off of our asses and do more for Africa.

I am proud to belong to a Church that is inclusive. I am proud that my church is spending its time working towards something more important than SpongeBob.

I am proud of my Church and I believe that it is more in line with true Christian belief.
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Old 01-23-2005, 02:59 PM   #149
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Can't we all agree that as Christians there are more important things in the world than if Sponge Bob is stright gay or whatever?
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Old 01-23-2005, 03:00 PM   #150
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So do Christians spend as much time condemning lying as they do condemning homosexuality? How about condemning adultery? Divorce? How about stealing, or swearing or drinking alcohol or any one of the thousand and one other things I've heard people call sins?
On a person to person basis, yes. It never makes the news because it does not draw the headlines like homosexuality.

The bottom line is: we all are sinner. The question is: what do we do about it.

Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
And why is the analogy to racism offensive? Racism and homophobia are both forms of prejudice, are both offensive, both based on ignorance, and both extremely harmful to the people they are directed against.
You equate Christianity with homophobia with racism. At least Christianity that take the Bible as God's inerrant Word and is willing to accept all of the Bible.

Must Christians reject certain teachings of Scripture to be acceptable to you?

Your own labeling of Christians could fall into your own generalization (i.e., is equal to racism). I'm sure that is not what you intended.
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