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Old 08-24-2005, 07:02 PM   #46
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Originally posted by nathan1977


Since Muslims and traditional Jews also share a belief in absolutes, this seems to be a bit general.

You know I've seen you do this in many other threads, anytime conservative Christianity is even brought up you automatically jump to other religions. Well what you say is true, but that's not what this thread is about.

The point that was trying to be made is that CCs will not be able to see science and their beliefs comingle or see that anyone who doesn't believe the way they do will see salvation. They believe in black and white and can't see gray.
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Old 08-24-2005, 07:23 PM   #47
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There are some interesting points and principles here. I'd love to keep on going, but I don't see a forum as the best place to discuss.
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Old 08-24-2005, 08:32 PM   #48
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Originally posted by nathan1977
I think it's very hard if you're someone who takes her/his faith seriously, not to let it affect the decisions you make and the values you hold. And since so much of legislation is about choosing laws in line with your values, it's hard to leave your beliefs behind at the ballot box.

It seems to have the effect of saying there are places God should not be, and if you're of the mindset that God shouldn't be put in a box, then it's hard to say "HERE I will use my faith, HERE I won't."
You bring up some excellent points. I think in our caricature of conservative Christians, we forget that these are still just regular people who don't always know where to draw the line between faith and action. It's not easy to always make the correct judgement between living your faith and respecting other people's freedoms. It's a thin line. I wish we'd remember that more.
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Old 08-25-2005, 04:01 AM   #49
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What category would you put, say:

CS Lewis?

Martin Luther (very politcally active if you consider the times)

Martin Luther King Jr

Bono?
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Old 08-25-2005, 07:03 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
What category would you put, say:

CS Lewis?
Don't really know anything outside a few readings of his.

Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

Martin Luther (very politcally active if you consider the times)
He was extremely liberal for his time, he was breaking away from the church and creating a divide very similar to the one we have today.

Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

Martin Luther King Jr
People were using Religion to justify slavery and segregation, his views and teachings were extremely liberal. They still are for many, the idea that we're all God's children still hasn't sunk into many "christians" heads.

Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris

Bono?
Bono's political actions have been for that of a general mankind, not just "his own".

But I don't understand the questioning. No one said you couldn't be politically active. There's a big difference from what these individuals above did or do and fighting to deny gay people the right to marry or to make sure your 10 commandments are in the courthouse.

MLK and Bono fight for equality and it didn't matter what religion or beliefs the people held. MLK didn't want equality just for black straight Christians...
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Old 08-25-2005, 07:07 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
What category would you put, say:

CS Lewis?

Martin Luther (very politcally active if you consider the times)

Martin Luther King Jr

Bono?


not as sure of the others as i am of Bono, but the difference between these people (as i understand them) is that they use Christianity as a source of freedom and liberation and equality, rather than a tool of social control; they seek to try and tap into that otherness, the sense of "we are all god's children" rather than trying to remake the world into their own literalist interpretations of the Bible rooted in the idea of a rules-oriented diety.
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Old 08-25-2005, 07:11 AM   #52
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Originally posted by Irvine511
not as sure of the others as i am of Bono, but the difference between these people (as i understand them) is that they use Christianity as a source of freedom and liberation and equality, rather than a tool of social control; they seek to try and tap into that otherness, the sense of "we are all god's children" rather than trying to remake the world into their own literalist interpretations of the Bible rooted in the idea of a rules-oriented diety.
Exactly, which is why I get confused when people assume a Calvinist = an ultra conservative or fundamentalist Christian. Exactly the opposite is true if you actually look at the actions and teachings of Luther and Calvin.
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Old 08-25-2005, 10:02 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You know I've seen you do this in many other threads, anytime conservative Christianity is even brought up you automatically jump to other religions. Well what you say is true, but that's not what this thread is about.
I'm not sure what other posts you're referring to... not saying you're wrong, I'm just not sure you've got the right guy. I don't remember posts to that effect, but it's possible.

My whole point was that people who dislike conservative Christianity for the reasons above (absolutes, sexual mores, molding faith into action), may find that they dislike a whole lot more than just conservative Christianity, since there are such traditions in other cultures and faith systems -- so perhaps there are deeper, more Christianity-centered reasons for the resentment/anger/what have you.

Bono said once in an interview, "Saying Clinton likes rock and roll is like saying Clinton likes books. It's what's inside the books that count." What is inside conservative Christianity that riles people?

But I'm far more interested in the Calvinist aspect of this thread, so I digress.
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Old 08-25-2005, 10:24 AM   #54
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


To some it doesn't matter, but to Calvinists it does b/c usually people who don't think the distinction matters err on the side of assuming infallibility is the same as inerrancy (not the other way around). I can explain it better privately if you'd like.
I still think inerrancy and infallibility are the same thing. This is what dictionary.com said:

inerrancy-Freedom from error or untruths; infallibility: belief in the inerrancy of the Scriptures.

infallibility- 1. Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
2. Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.
3. Roman Catholic Church. Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.

You can e-mail me if you want- briarrose24@juno.com

or IM

shell52080
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Old 08-25-2005, 10:37 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
What is inside conservative Christianity that riles people?
Well, I don't have a Jew or a Hindu shoving their opinions down my throat through legislature.

It is Conservative Christian groups in North America especially, who are organized and attempting to legislate their beliefs to the mainstream. They are infringing on my rights, because I do not share their faith. Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, etc, have not behaved in such a way in the society in which I live and therefore they do not "rile" me up. Once they insist I don't turn on a lightbulb on Friday night or give up my beef burger, we'll talk.
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Old 08-25-2005, 10:37 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by briarrose


I still think inerrancy and infallibility are the same thing. This is what dictionary.com said:

inerrancy-Freedom from error or untruths; infallibility: belief in the inerrancy of the Scriptures.

infallibility- 1. Incapable of erring: an infallible guide; an infallible source of information.
2. Incapable of failing; certain: an infallible antidote; an infallible rule.
3. Roman Catholic Church. Incapable of error in expounding doctrine on faith or morals.
Trust me, it's not. Dictionary.com didn't make up the theology surrounding the two terms. I'll ellaborate later since I can't remember specifics and my class notes are at home.
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Old 08-25-2005, 12:12 PM   #57
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I'm just curious to here what comes to mind when you guys hear "conservative Christian".
I'd think what the heck does that mean? Then I'd assume that it's some kind of American thing. The middle classes of the USA who complained about the 'wardrobe malfunction' at the Superbowl, that kinda thing (I'm not saying they were wrong to complain BTW but if it was a publicity stunt, the complaints would be exactly what she was banking on).

But in the UK, perhaps I've been living with my head in the sand as it were, but you just don't hear those sort of phrases attached to Christians. Occasionally you might hear the term 'fundamentalist' but anything other is very rare. You're all just lumped into one band here: Christians, with perhaps a bit of a denominational distinction sometimes too.

As for the "what do I consider myself" part that a lot of people have included in their answers, I just don't know. Really I don't. I aren't really comfortable with discussing my own personal beliefs so I won't go into all that. But I don't think I'd call myself a liberal but on the other hand I don't know if I could be called a traditionalist either. It's just all so confusing isn't it? (I'd just written down a whole load of confusing waffle then realised I'd be contradicting my whole 'don't like to talk about my beliefs' thing so I deleted it so that's why this post ends rather abruptly!)
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Old 08-25-2005, 12:58 PM   #58
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Originally posted by TheQuiet1
The middle classes of the USA who complained about the 'wardrobe malfunction' at the Superbowl, that kinda thing (I'm not saying they were wrong to complain BTW but if it was a publicity stunt, the complaints would be exactly what she was banking on).
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Old 08-25-2005, 01:13 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

My whole point was that people who dislike conservative Christianity for the reasons above (absolutes, sexual mores, molding faith into action), may find that they dislike a whole lot more than just conservative Christianity, since there are such traditions in other cultures and faith systems -- so perhaps there are deeper, more Christianity-centered reasons for the resentment/anger/what have you.
I think you have a big misunderstanding of the issue. First of all sneaking in the little "sexual morals" is completely uncalled for are you saying that liberal Christians or even liberals in general don't have sexual morals?

Secondly the reason CCs get such focus in here is they are the loudest in western civilization. You don't hear of conservative Jews yelling to keep 10 commandments in court houses, or calling for a ban on gay marriage, or demanding prayer and creationism in school.

I may disagree with many of the beliefs of CCs, but I don't have to agree with everyone within my faith. What I disagree with is their actions, their insisting on forcing their beliefs on others.
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Old 08-25-2005, 01:16 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

Secondly the reason CCs get such focus in here is they are the loudest in western civilization. You don't hear of conservative Jews yelling to keep 10 commandments in court houses, or calling for a ban on gay marriage, or demanding prayer and creationism in school.


as a side note, i believe that the Jewish view on homosexuality is that it cannot be a sin, because sin must be actively and willfully chosen, and since homosexuality is not, then it cannot be a sin.

now, please continue ...

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