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Old 04-26-2004, 04:40 PM   #31
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Why are they working in a place that will perform elective abortions if they know they're job description may call upon them to aid in one?

In 10th grade ethics class we had this day where people that worked in various professions came in with a problem that involved them and we discussed it. One lady was a nurse at a hospital on the maturnity ward and one lady came in for a partial birth abortion or something similar. Basically the baby was delivered and the mother didn't want it/wanted to abort it so the nurses were told to leave it alone. The nurse that was talking to us had to decide whether to care for the pre-maturely delivered baby or leave it lying there to die. I guess this situation fits with this thread b/c obviously her religious beliefs told her to save the baby. But her job was to leave it alone, per Dr.'s orders.

I was sort of thinking of this when I read your comment and decided that you're right - I could NEVER work at a hospital that killed babies. I know that's only one of the many medicine vs. religion issues that could arise, but it's good enough for me!
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Old 04-26-2004, 06:13 PM   #32
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interesting topic isnt it??

people get into careers for all kinds of reasons but I guess I feel that if your personal beliefs are going to get into the way of doing a job where you are either a first responder or a health care provider then you simpel don't go into that career .. I dont think it is your job to decide who or what you treat but that you treat them. That is you shouldnt bring personal bias into the Job.. What about all the medics who serve in times of war and treat soldiers on the other side .. what if they decided that the enemy was not worth treating what would that say if they chose not to save that life.. I guess it comes down to the code of ethics.. but this Bill I just dont understand

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I think it's opening up a dangerous precedent to allow every and any health care provider to play moral judge
your so right.. that scares me , like someone else had mentioned what precedant will this set for other like police and fireman..

These situations I'm sure they take and emotional toll but it is not for us to judge I suppose .. My boyfriend who is a police officer he has to deal with situations in his job that maybe personaly he doesnt agree with but he has to do his job.. If he were not able to do that seperate the emotion from the job then it is not a job he should be in..
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Old 04-26-2004, 06:43 PM   #33
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I think it's opening up a dangerous precedent to allow every and any health care provider to play moral judge
I think we would be fooling ourselves to think that health care providers don't already play moral judge with their advice.
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Old 04-26-2004, 06:48 PM   #34
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THis is very co-incidental as I just re-watched Bowling for Columbine yesterday on DVD- that doco saddens me an makes me sooooooooo angry and that is how I felt reading this thread. This new act is just ludicrous, I really dont understand how someone could get into a career if they had serious 'moral' objections to major aspects of their chosen career. I can understand a person, say, not wanting to get a blood transfusion if that is their belief but, if a care giver were to refuse the procedure due to their beliefs, well, that is just not right and what next, taxi drivers refusing to carry passengers whom they might see as someone who may object to their personal beliefs, religion etc etc?????

you know the sad thing is that this has been accepted, if something like this were to be even mentioned in our parliament, it would be shot down in flames, seriously, what is happening in America??? when I read things like this it makes me so sad and so glad that I live in Australia
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Old 04-26-2004, 06:57 PM   #35
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It can happen in Australia. I know that to have an abortion in Perth it has to be on a Friday. Not many nurses want to do it so 'they' schedule the nurses who are prepared to do it on one shift after another on Fridays.

I guess at least there is still a choice for both the nurses and the patients - they just have to wait a little bit.

The problem may be in some place smaller where there may well be NO nurses prepared to do it. Then what? Travel to a city I guess. This works for abortions but where the patient is ill and the medical staff refuse to provide assistance, then that would be very sad.
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Old 04-26-2004, 07:46 PM   #36
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In response to what you said Beli, I have heard of this and I know that here on the Sunshine Coast there is no abortion clinic, however there is one at Caboolture which is about a half hour drive south. I have nothing against abortions, however I am disgusted at the women whom seem to use them as a form of birth control due to being irresponsible. I can honestly say that nearly every second female friend of mine has had an abortion at the clinic in Caboolture and all of them for situations where they didn't use more appropriate birth control, so I can understand nurses and doctors being relucatant to perform abortions in these situations as people should be more responsible, however with this being said I still do not believe that a woman should be refused the procedure for any reason but I do believe that in the example that I have given that women and men should be more responsible when it comes to birth control and try and not let situations get to the stage of where an abortion is an alternative..
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Old 04-26-2004, 09:53 PM   #37
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You ladies totally disregard the feelings of people who feel that an abortion = killing a living baby. It's not always religion, sometimes it's just conscience. You call it a choice, they call it murder. They want no part of murder. No, they should not avoid a medical career because of this. They got into medicine to save lives, not take them. They have every right to refuse to be a part in the taking of the life of a baby. But you are right, with all the birth control available today to both men and women, more responsibility on the parts of both men and women are in order. That would eliminate the need for about 90% of abortions. Then 'Fridays' will be enough. But think about this, if there are that few people who are willing to have anything to do with it, what a loss it would be if they all chose another career, and what a shortage of nurses would come of it. So let them treat the sick, the injured, the elderly, and the children, and excuse them for not wanting to kill unborn babies.
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:13 PM   #38
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I think people are making a mistake in thinking this all boils down to abortion. The law does far more than protect providers who do not wish to perform elective abortions. It allows medical practitioners, outside of emergency situations, to decline any patient for any religious or moral reason. I ask you all: do you think it is really okay for a doctor or a nurse to refuse to treat a patient for any reason? Do we not expect more from a profession which is accompanied by so much societal esteem and financial incentive?
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Old 04-26-2004, 10:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
You ladies totally disregard the feelings of people who feel that an abortion = killing a living baby. It's not always religion, sometimes it's just conscience. You call it a choice, they call it murder. They want no part of murder. No, they should not avoid a medical career because of this. They got into medicine to save lives, not take them. They have every right to refuse to be a part in the taking of the life of a baby.
Whatever the reason for their objection, religious or moral, they should not place themselves in a job situation where they may be called upon to participate in an abortion. If someone is so against abortion that they cannot do the procedure or aid in the procedure, they should also feel wrong taking a paycheck from an organization that provides them. Don't work there. Seek employment where you are not asked to do something against your religious beliefs or moral code and you have solved the problem. Don't expect your place of employment to change for you.

No one should avoid a medical career because they object to certain areas of it...they should find an employer with a similar belief system.
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Old 04-27-2004, 06:13 AM   #40
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Originally posted by OzAurora
I have nothing against abortions, however I am disgusted at the women whom seem to use them as a form of birth control due to being irresponsible.
I agree with you. This kind of thing falls into the same category as vanity inspired plastic surgery (as distinct from burns victims etc having plastic surgery) But there can still be medical and/or psychological reasons for abortions. Not that I want to sidetrack this thread arguing the pros and cons.

I guess the problem with this Act is that it may deny people access to contraception in the first place. And the possibility of non treatment for HIV patients is quite scary. I have been trying to recall which country set up a fenced area in a town and put all the HIV patients inside the fenced area ie a form of health apartheid. That was seriously ammoral. IMHO.

Then theres the blood transfusions, people of colour, etc. My OBGYN is vegan because of his religion and tells me off whenever there is a trace of cheese detected in my samples. Fotunately he allows me to ignore his lecturing and we get along famously. But if he decided to not treat me because Im not a member of his religion............
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Old 04-27-2004, 07:31 AM   #41
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Did anyone actually read my last post?
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Old 04-27-2004, 10:09 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
I have been trying to recall which country set up a fenced area in a town and put all the HIV patients inside the fenced area ie a form of health apartheid. That was seriously ammoral. IMHO.
I know Cuba did something similar to this, although not quite as extreme as the example you're describing. I think they required everyone with AIDS/HIV to remain in a clinic/treatment centre for a length of time while they began treatment and then imposed various restrictions on them, like requiring them to visit the clinic regularly.

Quote:
I guess the problem with this Act is that it may deny people access to contraception in the first place. And the possibility of non treatment for HIV patients is quite scary.
Exactly, and of course it's not only limited to those examples. What if a patient visits a doctor requesting treatment for depression, but the doctor refuses to treat him because according to his religion the only cure for mental illness is "finding God" or some such nonsense.
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Old 04-27-2004, 06:36 PM   #43
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
Did anyone actually read my last post?
Yep. My reference to my OBGYN being Sai Baba is because Im pregnant, happily so. Not because of the other issue being discussed. Im so fat that I forget people on the internet may not know Im pregnant. Sorry.

Yep
- HIV
- people of colour
- contraception
- anti depressants (thanks Fizz)

There may well be people who believe smokers are not entitled to lung operations. Perhaps male doctors not wanting to treat females. And vice versa. There are as many forms of bigotry as there are people on this earth.
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Old 04-28-2004, 12:27 AM   #44
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Every person should be entitled to competent health care regardless of their beliefs and should not be discriminated against because of them. Discrimination in any form is wrong.

Pax asked:

Is it is really okay for a doctor or a nurse to refuse to treat a patient for any reason?

Only if by treating the patient they are putting themselves or others at risk that is unacceptable by their workplace guidelines.
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Old 04-28-2004, 12:41 AM   #45
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
But her job was to leave it alone, per Dr.'s orders.
I would then say that the blood is on the mother's hands, if the law allows her to do such a thing.

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