Congressman Foley resigns

[Irvine511]

Sorry. Allow me to clarify.

What is the source document, philosophy, theology, culture...etc, that people here are using to say "this is right" and "this is wrong."

the Gay Handbook. you get it when you sign the papers after the recruitment weekend on Fire Island.

 

[BVS]

 

[Irvine511]

in all seriousness, i don't consult a single book to figure out what i think is right or wrong. i would point to values instilled by your parents and the community you grew up in (it certainly does take a village), combined with the laws under which you have grown up and the education you have received, the books you have read, the experiences you have acquired, all topped off by a certain innate sense of right and wrong, what might be called one's conscience, that are often derived from a sense of empathy, the ability to place yourself in the shoes of another.

for me, it's never been from one place.

 

[AEON]

I feel complete sympathy for what being a closeted gay person must be like (as limited as that is given I can't directly experience it), but once you involve other people in that, especially 16 year olds, it just takes it to a whole different level. You are not just hurting/potentially hurting yourself anymore.

What if the affair was consensual? In some cultures - past and present - this would be a perfectly acceptable relationship. Why do you feel our society should be different?

 

[BVS]

What if the affair was consensual? In some cultures - past and present - this would be a perfectly acceptable relationship. Why do you feel our society should be different?

Seriously what is your point of this "what if" questioning? If this was truly a consentual affair then the situation would be entirely different, it would just be another hypocritical politician caught in an affair.

What if the intern was his grandma? What if his intern was a Muslim? What if, what if, what if

Just get to your point.

 

[anitram]

You gotta love Fox news.

 

[BVS]

A thread calling out the Republican party and Fox News...

puts a smile on my face!

 

[melon]

What if the affair was consensual? In some cultures - past and present - this would be a perfectly acceptable relationship. Why do you feel our society should be different?

I have a hunch you're making this issue as complicated as it is to make your point that all laws should be Biblically based.

If that's the case, I should remind you that that even in the Bible, relationships that we would presently consider to be inappropriate are supported in the Bible, including polygamy. What is also left unsaid in the Bible is that most marriages were arranged and normally occurred in the early teen years. More than one scholar has noted, for instance, that if Mary was a typical Jewish girl from 2000 years ago, then she would have given birth to Jesus at around 13 years old, considering that they state that she was not yet married to Joseph.

Cultural mores change for seemingly arbitrary reasons, which is why it is best to apply evolving morality to the test of secular humanism. In this case, modern society has dictated that consensual acts between adults is ethical, whereas acts between minors (as defined by "age of consent" laws) and adults are not ethical. Likewise, any acts in a student/teacher or boss/subordinate position are highly discouraged, due to the potential for abuse of power.

Melon

 

[melon]

You gotta love Fox news.

Their sense of journalistic ethics is nothing short of astounding.

"Fair and balanced," my ass.

Melon

 

[cjboog]

You gotta love Fox news.

Unbelievable. Fox News is the biggest sack of crap excuse for news that ever existed. Fox is nothing but a gigantic conservative spin machine that will do the bidding of the republican party even if it means completely misleading the public intentionally. Amazing.

 

[martha]

And Fox viewers will buy it.

 

[deep]

Foley Says He Was Abused by a Clergyman

Oct 03 6:49 PM US/Eastern

By BRIAN SKOLOFF
Associated Press Writer

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla.



Disgraced former Rep. Mark Foley said through his lawyer Tuesday that he was abused by a clergyman as a teenager, but accepts full responsibility for sending salacious computer messages to teenage male pages.

Attorney David Roth said Foley was molested between ages 13 and 15 by a clergyman. He declined to identify the clergyman or the church, but Foley is Roman Catholic.

He declined to identify the clergyman or the church,


Now he is protecting a paedophile?

If this Priest molested him
and this is suggested as an excuse or explanation

how many more Foley time bombs are there out there?

Should not this Priest be turned in and stopped
and those that he molested have an opportunity for healing and get counseling?

Is not that the right thing to do?

 

[Angela Harlem]

You gotta love Fox news.

20th Century FOX. They're good with entertainment.

 

[Angela Harlem]

He declined to identify the clergyman or the church,


Now he is protecting a paedophile?

If this Priest molested him
and this is suggested as an excuse or explanation

how many more Foley time bombs are there out there?

Should not this Priest be turned in and stopped
and those that he molested have an opportunity for healing get counseling?

Is not that the right thing to do?

Oh, but he's not protecting him, deep. He just threw this excuse out there...ya know, because. He's still accepting responsibility. It's not the priests' fault. He even said so.

 

[INDY500]

Their sense of journalistic ethics is nothing short of astounding.

"Fair and balanced," my ass.

Melon

Of coarse when it involves a Republican and CNN...it's a technical gaffe right?

 

[BVS]

^ Did Drudge not tell you an operator acting on his own got fired for this?

I guess not...

 

[A_Wanderer]

He declined to identify the clergyman or the church,


Now he is protecting a paedophile?

If this Priest molested him
and this is suggested as an excuse or explanation

how many more Foley time bombs are there out there?

Should not this Priest be turned in and stopped
and those that he molested have an opportunity for healing and get counseling?

Is not that the right thing to do?

Is it plausible that the Priest is now dead? A lot of victims stay quiet I don't see how he should be held to a different standard, he is not the perpetrator.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

What if the affair was consensual? In some cultures - past and present - this would be a perfectly acceptable relationship. Why do you feel our society should be different?

Do you honestly believe that in present day in the US (which I assume we're discussing since that's where it happened) that it is considered perfectly acceptable for a 52 year old to have a consensual affair with a 16 year old? Where is that exactly, because I must be living under a rock or something. I guess you could be referring to a Warren Jeffs type situation, and that is hardly consensual on the part of those girls. Quite the opposite. The polar opposite.

I honestly wonder if you are implying that this type of scenario is prevalent in the gay community.

 

[melon]

I honestly wonder if you are implying that this type of scenario is prevalent in the gay community.

In some circles of conservative nonsense, "homosexual" and "pedophile" are synonyms.

Melon

 

[A_Wanderer]

Do you honestly believe that in present day in the US (which I assume we're discussing since that's where it happened) that it is considered perfectly acceptable for a 52 year old to have a consensual affair with a 16 year old? Where is that exactly, because I must be living under a rock or something. I guess you could be referring to a Warren Jeffs type situation, and that is hardly consensual on the part of those girls. Quite the opposite. The polar opposite.

I don't see how it is terribly different than a 29 year old and a 55 year old.

 

[melon]

Do you honestly believe that in present day in the US (which I assume we're discussing since that's where it happened) that it is considered perfectly acceptable for a 52 year old to have a consensual affair with a 16 year old?

If the 16 year-old is defined as an adult, according to the age of consent laws, then whatever those two people want to do is none of my business.

When they say that "justice is blind," I interpret that to mean that emotional reactions should not factor into judgment, no matter how inappropriate I would personally feel about a 52 year old and a 16 year old.

However, I think this is all besides the point, because nothing that Foley did was consensual, apparently. I don't even know why this dimension was added to this discussion originally, except to be homophobic.

Melon

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I don't see how it is terribly different than a 29 year old and a 55 year old.

Really? Well I do. Even if a 16 year old is the age of consent, in most cases (I can't say all because there could always be exceptions, and there are plenty of very immature 29 year olds) a 29 year old would be far more emotionally mature and equipped to handle a relationship, the age difference, and everything else. I can't imagine any parent, even the most permissive of parents, being ok with their 16 year old having a relationship with a 52 year old. Some might even have some qualms about the 29 year old, but of course they would have no say in it. Even if 16 is the age of consent, most parents would still believe they have a say in that. And wouldn't want their 16 year old even IM ing with a 52 year old in that way, let alone one in that position of authority and in such a sexually graphic way.

I guess I'm just terribly old fashioned in thinking that, and in thinking that in all ways that matter a 16 year old is still a child. Even though so many cultural aspects attempt to tell us otherwise.

I wonder if any parent here would be ok with that, show of hands?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/03/AR2006100301001_pf.html

"While Foley's attorney said the congressman never had "inappropriate sexual contact with a minor," that may not matter, said Kendall Coffey, a former U.S. attorney in Florida.

He said Foley could face criminal charges under state or federal laws for "grooming" minors for sexual contact.

"There are going to be experts who look at these e-mails and say those are the unmistakable fingerprints of a predator, but others will call them fantasies. It's a question of intent," the former prosecutor said."

 

[AEON]

I don't even know why this dimension was added to this discussion originally, except to be homophobic.

Melon

Melon - you and homophobia is like McCarthy and communisim - you see it everywhere.

The "dimension" of discussing why people had a problem with this news story was simply to demonstrate how random our moral outrage can be.

You yourself just said that as long as an incident like this is "legal" - you wouldn't consider it your business. How far would you take this idea? What if they passed a law that endorsed murder for those that state labeled as "undesirable?" What if they legalized sex between adults and five year olds? My point is - the legal system seems like very shaky ground to anchor your moral choices.

 

[AEON]

in all seriousness, i don't consult a single book to figure out what i think is right or wrong. i would point to values instilled by your parents and the community you grew up in (it certainly does take a village), combined with the laws under which you have grown up and the education you have received, the books you have read, the experiences you have acquired, all topped off by a certain innate sense of right and wrong, what might be called one's conscience, that are often derived from a sense of empathy, the ability to place yourself in the shoes of another.

for me, it's never been from one place.

Thanks for this thoughtful answer Irvine. I am pretty much on the same page with you.

Of course - the the next place this discussion would probably go is here: if morality is determined by parents, community, local laws, books, and an innate sense of right and wrong - then should a society do what it can to insure that all children are having these values instilled by these resources? Otherwise, we may have one community within the society that may feel random cannibalism is okay because their parents say so, their community says so, their local laws say so, and the books they read say so.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Really? Well I do. Even if a 16 year old is the age of consent, in most cases (I can't say all because there could always be exceptions, and there are plenty of very immature 29 year olds) a 29 year old would be far more emotionally mature and equipped to handle a relationship, the age difference, and everything else. I can't imagine any parent, even the most permissive of parents, being ok with their 16 year old having a relationship with a 52 year old. Some might even have some qualms about the 29 year old, but of course they would have no say in it. Even if 16 is the age of consent, most parents would still believe they have a say in that. And wouldn't want their 16 year old even IM ing with a 52 year old in that way, let alone one in that position of authority and in such a sexually graphic way.

I guess I'm just terribly old fashioned in thinking that, and in thinking that in all ways that matter a 16 year old is still a child. Even though so many cultural aspects attempt to tell us otherwise.

I wonder if any parent here would be ok with that, show of hands?

oops, I meant 19 y.o; same age difference as the other case.

 

[melon]

Melon - you and homophobia is like McCarthy and communism - you see it everywhere.

Twenty state DOMAs, plus eight on the November ballot, don't lie. Using those DOMAs to try to deny even basic rights to same-sex couples, don't lie.

Bringing up the issue of same-sex marriage in a thread about pedophilia and sexual harrassment? That's beyond acceptable.

So you're right. I do see it everywhere, because I call a spade a spade.

On the other hand, the constant Christian persecution complex in this county is getting quite hilarious, because there's absolutely no evidence of it--unless you consider it "a right" to demean, slander and bully unpopular minorities.

You yourself just said that as long as an incident like this is "legal" - you wouldn't consider it your business. How far would you take this idea? What if they passed a law that endorsed murder for those that state labeled as "undesirable?" What if they legalized sex between adults and five year olds? My point is - the legal system seems like very shaky ground to anchor your moral choices.

Most of these "age of consent" laws were written around very conservative concepts. Do you think it was "liberals" who passed the Georgia law that allowed 14 year olds to get married--and even younger if they were pregnant?

Hell, it's only in the last 30 years that "marital rape" could occur. Prior to that, it was just part of the "wifely duties."

But *all* of this is besides the point. You're purposely trying to make this specific situation complicated, when it is fairly straightforward, legally and morally. Allow me to emphasize the point that most of us here have been trying to make, without avail:

Foley was not having a consensual affair. He was sending illegal sexual messages to people who are undeniably minors by any stretch of the imagination (e.g., 13 and 15 year olds), in addition to sending illegal sexually harrassing messages to a subordinate. Whether that "subordinate" was male, female, 17 years old, or 50 years old, it is still inappropriate, unethical, and illegal to engage in that kind of behavior in the position that Foley was in. As such, he deserves the wrath that he's getting.

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

Foley was not having a consensual affair. He was sending illegal sexual messages to people who are undeniably minors by any stretch of the imagination (e.g., 13 and 15 year olds), in addition to sending illegal sexually harrassing messages to a subordinate. Whether that "subordinate" was male, female, 17 years old, or 50 years old, it is still inappropriate, unethical, and illegal to engage in that kind of behavior in the position that Foley was in. As such, he deserves the wrath that he's getting.

Melon

I think that about sums it up, and rather loudly, I may add.

 

[80sU2isBest]

On the other hand, the constant Christian persecution complex in this county is getting quite hilarious, because there's absolutely no evidence of it--unless you consider it "a right" to demean, slander and bully unpopular minorities.

Persecution to the point of people being endangered? No, but there is certainly anti-Christian bias in the media and even n the education system.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Did you have to quote those huge letters again?

But the huge letters are correct, and same sex marriage has absolutely nothing to do with this situation.