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Old 10-09-2006, 06:43 PM   #256
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Indeed. They are very troubling. And it is not "homophobic" to have a problem with them.
No, not at all.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:07 PM   #257
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Indeed. They are very troubling. And it is not "homophobic" to have a problem with them.
agreed.
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Old 10-10-2006, 08:24 AM   #258
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It is homophobic however to equate NAMBLA and pedophilia with homosexuality. You do know that the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual men. They prey on boys and girls because their problem has nothing to do ultimately with sexuality-it's all about power and control just as it is for rapists.
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Old 10-10-2006, 09:18 AM   #259
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I think we need to get back to the topic of discussing the political fallout, specifically the Congressional reverberations, of this case. It wasn't my intent to pick on anyone nor to draw out a tangent and encourage others to do so, but I guess that's what I did, for which I apologize.

-----------------------------------

What bothered me about the NAMBLA allegations as I researched them was not the political identity of the people making them (and indeed, much though not all of what I came across was blogs or boards directly associated with conservative talk radio, Hannity, Savage, etc.), but rather the lack of evidence provided in all cases to substantiate these claims. With the exception of the Spectator article--which, while I personally found its tone propagandist and its associations spurious, nonethless appropriately provided plenty of factual details about Harry Hay and his role vis-a-vis Pelosi in the SF Parade--NONE of what I was seeing provided any supporting evidence which one might cross-check. No film footage, no quotes from eyewitnesses, no dates, no official lists of parade participants from newspapers, no nothing. To me, that ought to be a red flag right there, when such sensational claims are being made. If some prominent liberal spokeperson went on record with assertions like, "I believe GWB attended pro-life conferences with Operation Recue members who endorse violence and said nothing against them," it would draw nothing more than a raised eyebrow from me unless they could show me dates, places, supporting documentation, and specifics about said conferences. What do you mean, "I believe"?! Such claims demand evidence, and I would doubt the integrity of intent of anyone who spread them without cross-checking them first.

It's my understanding that, to the extent NAMBLA once enjoyed platform space within the broader gay rights movement (and it's further my understanding that they always had vocal gay critics who wanted them "excommunicated" immediately, and a majority who at least squirmed when they showed up at parades), it's because A) there were then-powerful activists like Hay who opposed their exclusion, and B) the gay rights movement in general emerged from a time when to be openly gay, period, was sufficient cause for arrest or worse, with corrupting "minors," which police tended to define liberally, often being among the charges employed. In such a context, a lobbying group devoted to altering the age of consent (and NAMBLA members never held any one view on what that should entail) probably seemed less a priori reprehensible and dangerous to many gay people than it would now. And for sure it's my understanding that Irvine and melon speak for virtually all gay people today in their expressed attitude towards NAMBLA, i.e., total revulsion. Nonetheless, like the Klan or the neo-Nazis, NAMBLA does not function even today as a "place" for actually committing pedophilia, and the FBI would have banished them altogether long ago if they did. One look at their website makes it clear that this is not a well-funded group with lots of well-placed political connections.

And, yes, part of what disturbed me in many of the reader comments I saw on some of the boards and blogs I came across was precisely that it reminded me so much of a dynamic familiar to me from anti-Semitic websites. Someone sets out a sensational and, in my view, immediately obvious as highly problematic claim, which is then gleefully set upon with hateful and vulgar diatribes from people who clearly don't need much nudging to conclude that most Jews/gays/etc. are indeed vile and devious scum. Again, this immediately makes me wary of anyone who makes such claims.

-----------------------------------

Anyhow, with that explanation of motivations off my chest, again I apologize for drawing out a tangent or coming across as picking on anyone. This discussion needs to get back on track now.
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Old 10-10-2006, 09:42 AM   #260
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thank you, Yolland. that was an outstanding post.
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Old 10-11-2006, 12:53 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
I

-----------------------------------

but rather the lack of evidence provided in all cases to substantiate these claims.

No film footage, no quotes from eyewitnesses, no dates, no official lists of parade participants from newspapers, no nothing.


To me, that ought to be a red flag right there, when such sensational claims are being made.


NAMBLA does not function even today as a "place" for actually committing pedophilia, and the FBI would have banished them altogether long ago if they did.

One look at their website makes it clear that this is not a well-funded group with lots of well-placed political connections.

And, yes, part of what disturbed me in many of the reader comments I saw on some of the boards and blogs I came across was precisely that it reminded me so much of a dynamic familiar to me from anti-Semitic websites.

Someone sets out a sensational and, in my view, immediately obvious as highly problematic claim, which is then gleefully set upon with hateful and vulgar diatribes from people who clearly don't need much nudging to conclude that most Jews/gays/etc. are indeed vile and devious scum.

Again, this immediately makes me wary of anyone who makes such claims.

-----------------------------------

Anyhow, with that explanation of motivations off my chest, again I apologize for drawing out a tangent or coming across as picking on anyone. This discussion needs to get back on track now.
Hold on-
I think Oprah disagrees with you:

They asked me if I knew what NAMBLA was," she says. "All I heard of that was 'man-boy love' and that [was] the first kick in the stomach."


Only on Interference could one read an apologist's view for a nationally renowned 'un'official-official gay pedophiles' group (that has been busted in the past by the FBI for harboring gay pedophies) attempting to draw parallels, comparisons and similarities between Jews and Gays , what a laugh.

It took me less than 15 sec to pull this article up and I wasn't really researching.

Maybe you'll listen to Oprah and her views on NAMBLA and you may want to readjust your own views afterwards-

http://www2.oprah.com/tows/slide/200..._284_101.jhtml

dbs
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Old 10-11-2006, 01:02 AM   #262
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WTF are you talking about Diamond? Lay off the drink, for you obviously missed Yolland point by miles.

Where was Yolland being an apologist?
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Old 10-11-2006, 01:03 AM   #263
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"
NAMBLA does not function even today as a "place" for actually committing pedophilia, and the FBI would have banished them altogether long ago if they did.
"
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Old 10-11-2006, 02:04 AM   #264
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When I first posted about Pelosi and NAMBLA marching in the same parade - I thought it was fact because it was all over the news. In actuality - the story was only opinions and conjecture. My point was that Pelosi was a hypocrite – not that all gays were pedophiles.

I do apologize for rushing to conclusions on Pelosi marching with NAMBLA. I do not independently verify every story I hear. I doubt most people do.

At the same time - I still believe 1) Pelosi is a fraud and 2) NAMBLA is yet another sign of our country's moral decay. I may be disgusted by the Republicans right now, but I certainly have no illusion that the Democrats will lead our country to a better place.
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Old 10-11-2006, 05:20 AM   #265
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Yes diamond, I am well aware that individual members of NAMBLA have been convicted of sex with minors, just as individual neo-Nazis have been convicted of assaulting gays and burning synagogues. Do you think neo-Nazi groups should be categorically illegal for that reason? I don't, and both of my parents bore concentration camp tattoos on their arms, so I am well aware that such organizations are, as I said, "a priori reprehensible and dangerous." My point was that such groups do not, as organizations, run brothels or concentration camps. Again, if that were their m.o., the FBI would shut them down altogether. The FBI does watch such groups and their members closely, as they should.

If I were an "apologist" for NAMBLA, I would simply have stood up and cheered "the Democrats" for marching alongside the "floats" of those poor, beleaguered pedophiles, not spent two hours trying to determine if there was any truth at all behind allegations I clearly considered extremely damning. I do think it's important to understand why and to what extent NAMBLA was ever affiliated with the broader gay rights movement in the first place.

I am not surprised that you find analogies between homophobia and anti-Semitism funny, nor that you would deliberately conflate supporting the right to disgusting free speech with supporting the committing of criminal acts. I have two young sons of my own at home; perhaps you should report me to the police for applauding convicted child molesters in spite of that.

And I take it you have no evidence to support Buchanan's claims either...seeing as how that was what provoked the whole interchange.
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Old 10-11-2006, 06:17 AM   #266
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Back to the thread topic...
Quote:
Hastert vows to fire anyone in a cover-up

By Noam Levey and Richard Simon
Associated Press, Oct. 11


WASHINGTON – House Speaker Dennis Hastert, whose office has been under fire for failing to deal more aggressively with former Rep. Mark Foley’s interest in congressional pages, said Tuesday he would fire anyone on his staff who covered up information in the case. The embattled Hastert continued to stand by his aides, as investigations by the FBI and House ethics committee moved forward. The Illinois Republican declined to discuss any suggestion that he should resign as speaker, as new polls showed the GOP’s prospects for holding onto control of the House in November have diminished.

“I think ... they’ve handled (the Foley matter) as well as they should,” Hastert said of his aides in Aurora, Ill., where he delivered a speech on the economy. He said that “if anybody’s found to have hidden information or covered up information, they really should be gone.” He added that many of Foley’s contacts with male pages appear to have occurred after the teenagers left Washington, suggesting that made it more difficult for Capitol Hill officials to know of the Florida Republican’s misconduct.
.....................................
On Tuesday, Rep. Jim Kolbe, an Arizona Republican who is retiring this year, sought to downplay suggestions that he should have done more when a page told him several years ago that he had received e-mails from Foley that made him feel uncomfortable. “I was not shown the content of the messages and was not told they were sexually explicit,” Kolbe said in a statement. “It was my recommendation that this complaint be passed along to Rep. Foley’s office and the clerk who supervised the page program. This was done promptly.” A Kolbe spokeswoman could not say precisely when the former page contacted Kolbe, saying it was between 2000 and 2002.

The scandal continues to be a hot issue in a number of campaigns nationwide. In New York, Jack Davis, the Democratic challenger to Rep. Tom Reynolds, chairman of the House GOP campaign committee, aired a new TV advertisement attacking the incumbent for failing to move aggressively to stop Foley’s contact with pages. “Tom Reynolds knew that Congressman Mark Foley was a predator,” the ad says. “What did he do? Tom Reynolds urged Foley to seek re-election.”

Reynolds, whose committee job entails overseeing the GOP effort to retain its House majority, has said he learned last spring of Foley’s “overly friendly” contacts with pages and informed Hastert about them. Like Hastert, Reynolds has said he had no knowledge of the sexually explicit messages.

Reynolds also has found himself tied to the scandal. His chief of staff, Kirk Fordham, who previously had been a longtime Foley aide, resigned from Reynolds’ office last week. He has said he warned Hastert’s staff at least three years ago that Foley had inappropriate contacts with pages – a claim Hastert’s office has disputed. Fordham is scheduled to testify Thursday before the House Ethics Committee, which is investigating how the Foley matter was handled by congressional leaders.

Over the weekend, Reynolds launched an ad in his district expressing regret that he had not pressed for a closer look into Foley’s conduct. “Nobody’s angrier and more disappointed that I didn’t catch his lies,” Reynolds says of himself.

In Pennsylvania, Republican Rep. Don Sherwood – who has run an ad apologizing for an extramarital affair – canceled fundraising appearances by Hastert and Reynolds. GOP candidates in Kentucky and Texas have also canceled Hastert fundraisers. Hastert plans to be on hand Thursday when President Bush attends a GOP fundraiser in Chicago.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:59 AM   #267
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At the same time - I still believe 1) Pelosi is a fraud and 2) NAMBLA is yet another sign of our country's moral decay. I may be disgusted by the Republicans right now, but I certainly have no illusion that the Democrats will lead our country to a better place.
NAMBLA is as much a sign of our "country's moral decay" as the KKK or Aryan Nations. That is, they're terrible, disgusting people, but they are such a tiny, powerless, insignificant minority that they don't even deserve the time of day that you've given them. They're nothing but a spectre of fear raised solely for the purpose of politics.

Hell will freeze ten times over and Satan given an unconditional pardon by God before NAMBLA ever achieves legitimacy. That's how fringe they are.

As I said before, it makes no sense to vote based on which party is "moral." Neither party is moral. The Republican Party has been using you to get votes for decades, and they think that if they do some nominal nods to abortion and pick on an unpopular minority, they can use that to cover up the fact that they've been fucking us over all along.

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Old 10-11-2006, 08:58 AM   #268
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As I said before, it makes no sense to vote based on which party is "moral." Neither party is moral. The Republican Party has been using you to get votes for decades, and they think that if they do some nominal nods to abortion and pick on an unpopular minority, they can use that to cover up the fact that they've been f***ing us over all along.

Melon
I basically agree. Although I don't vote Republican because they oppose abortion and pick on minority groups. There are tons of issues - and the Republicans at least "pretend" to share my opinion on most of them.

If the Democrats would drop the radical anti-war crowd (yes, sometimes war is necessary) - and go back to the FDR/Kennedy/LBJ mindset, then I would be more attracted to their party.
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Old 10-11-2006, 09:02 AM   #269
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If the Democrats would drop the radical anti-war crowd (yes, sometimes war is necessary) - and go back to the FDR/Kennedy/LBJ mindset, then I would be more attracted to their party.
You know, I quite agree. Now I can understand an opposition to the Iraq war, considering all the "mistruths," but there's a line between constructive criticism and hysteria. I often think that hysteria has won out.

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Old 10-11-2006, 09:25 AM   #270
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I don't know anything about Steve Kluger but I thought this was interesting

By Steve Kluger USA Today

"Thirty years ago, singer, former beauty queen and human being Anita Bryant sat before Florida's Dade County Metro Commission and demanded the repeal of the recently passed ordinance that prohibited discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.

"Homosexuals cannot reproduce, so they must recruit (our children)," she warned. With those few words, we lost our brand new civil rights - and it took us 20 years to get them back. What we really needed was somebody in the Sunshine State who was on our side.

Enter Mark Foley instead. Theoretically, it's easy to spot the politician whose mailing address is the closet. He's usually the one who's gleefully foaming over the most Draconian of anti-gay measures at the same time he's supporting, say, a jockstrap fetish, an itch to hang around truck stops, or a Calvin Klein model he's got stashed in a secret Brazilian love nest.

Foley was no different. From the day he was sworn in as the representative from Florida's 16th District, all he was missing was Bryant's hair. There was the matter of his very public Christianity, his endorsement of the so-called Defense of Marriage Act (which, incidentally, puts adult same-sex couples who wish to pledge lifelong fidelity into a category with national security threats), his authorship of numerous Internet restrictions to protect children from homosexuals and others online, and his repeated use of the word "revolting" to describe rumors that he's gay.

Then he became Bryant's worst nightmare. And ours, too.

Foley appears to be a sexual predator who exploited the adolescent thrall he engendered in House pages by pursuing teenage boys through explicit e-mails. He's also an unwitting poster boy for all gay men and lesbians who envision a career in politics: If you're ready to run for office, you'd better be ready to come out. And act like a responsible grown-up while you're at it. Spot Barney Frank in a gay bar on P Street and nobody's going to bat an eyelash. But if you're a married governor of New Jersey like Jim McGreevey who's discovered to have his clandestine male lover on the payroll, or gay-bashing Spokane Mayor James West who secretly prefers his male interns young and cute, you'd better start checking out Craigslist under "Employment Opportunities."

And yet, what else do you do when your entire career hinges on pretending you're something you're not? The religious fundamentalists and their political pod people might not always see eye-to-eye, but they seem to agree that the decline of Western civilization is due exclusively to gays and Bill Clinton. Indeed, if Foley's e-mails had been sent by a straight congressman to a 16-year-old girl - 16 being the age of consent in Washington, D.C., and in many states, by the way - the TV anchors would have been sure to remind viewers that "the young lady was legally of age," and the word "pedophile" never would have flashed across cable news.

Yet Foley can't be let off that easily. When cornered with his fingers on the keyboard, he thinks it's enough to come clean. "OK, you caught me. I'm gay." But that's not what being gay is about. In fact, not only is Foley's behavior the excuse that has been used over and over again to deprive accountable gay adults of their human rights, his glib defense soils even his own community. "I'm also an alcoholic." "And a priest abused me." "The devil made me do it." Shame comes in many disguises. Foley has worn all of them.

"Being right-handed or left-handed doesn't dictate whether you punch or steal," says Jennifer Pizer, senior counsel at Lambda Legal, the nation's oldest gay-rights law firm. "Your behavior is your choice. There's nothing shameful about being gay. But abusing power to seduce teenagers is wrong whether they're male or female, and whether you're a lefty or a righty."

So who's really responsible for the Mark Foley mess? Foley himself? The Republicans? The religious right? The closets in capitol buildings across the country? All of the above? Ah, hell. Let's blame Florida. Again.

Steve Kluger is a novelist and playwright.
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