Congressman Foley resigns - Page 12 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-05-2006, 12:26 PM   #166
Blue Crack Distributor
 
LarryMullen's POPAngel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: I'll be up with the sun, I'm not coming down...
Posts: 53,698
Local Time: 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl


I disagree that this is about pedophilia. Pedophiles go after children. I don't think going after a 16-17 year old guy is quite the same thing as pedophilia. It's icky and wrong but some of these guys played along and are old enough to know not to if they don't want to. And believe me, I'm not interested in defending some sleazeball Republican but I just don't think it's the same as pedophilia.

Agreed. I jumped the gun when I was replying. These kids are old enough to know better if that's what they don't want. But, at the same time, they are under the legal age of consent. Which to me is crossing that fine line.

The whole lack of integrity and general ickiness of this entire thing just really has me grossed out.
__________________

__________________
LarryMullen's POPAngel is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 12:27 PM   #167
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,494
Local Time: 05:59 AM
it is all very icky. and very sad.

the story is really about Hastert.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 12:31 PM   #168
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 03:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel



But the whole lack of integrity and general ickiness of this entire thing just really has me grossed out.
I agree--it's the Republican hypocrisy that is so gross. Sure, there are sleazy Democrats, too, but as Maher said, "They aren't the virtue people."
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 12:32 PM   #169
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 03:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it is all very icky. and very sad.

the story is really about Hastert.
Yep. And hypocrisy.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 01:13 PM   #170
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl

if he had been allowed to live an openly gay life with a partner (and we know it's the Republicans who try to repress and legislate sexuality), he might not have to resort to hunting down teenage boys online.
He didn't "have to" resort to that.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 01:17 PM   #171
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 03:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


He didn't "have to" resort to that.
True. But repression leads to sickness.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 01:26 PM   #172
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl

Bill Maher was on Wolf Blitzer's show last night and made the point that while yes, what Foley did was wrong, if he had been allowed to live an openly gay life with a partner (and we know it's the Republicans who try to repress and legislate sexuality), he might not have to resort to hunting down teenage boys online.
I don't think anyone has to "resort to hunting down teenage boys online"-one makes the conscious choice to do that. Like I said, I have sympathy for what it must be like to be closeted- but that's not an excuse for evading personal responsibility and for involving teenage boys. Not matter how innocent or not so innocent a teenage boy may or may not be, that is no rationalization for a 52 year old man engaging in online sexual come-ons and conversations with them. I'm sure he had plenty of access to adults who would have been suitable and willing participants-albeit closeted, if he felt pressure to remain in the closet. I think it's a dangerous idea to start evaluating the innocence of teenagers- for me it's ultimately all about the responsibility of adults. Just in my view it insults homosexuals in a way to take the Bill Maher point of view.


This letter to the editor was in one of my local papers today

"As a gay man living for more than two decades in Boston, I have known many gay men raised in strict Catholic homes, two of whom were molested by their priests. Not one of them grew up to be a closeted Republican who worked to criminalize his own behavior.

Foley should have sought professional help, as many of my friends did, long before he mixed alcohol, his own apparent homophobia, congressional pages, and the Internet, and brought himself to this ignominious place.

If he had taken personal responsibility for his mental health earlier, it would not be thrust upon him now by events he set in motion by his very failure to do so."
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 01:29 PM   #173
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 03:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen


I don't think anyone has to "resort to hunting down teenage boys online"-one makes the conscious choice to do that. Like I said, I have sympathy for what it must be like to be closeted- but that's not an excuse for evading personal responsibility and for involving teenage boys. Not matter how innocent or not so innocent a teenage boy may or may not be, that is no rationalization for a 52 year old man engaging in online sexual come-ons and conversations with them. I'm sure he had plenty of access to adults who would have been suitable and willing participatns-albeit closeted, if he felt pressure to remain in the closet. I think it's a dangerous idea to start evaluating the innocence of teenagers- for me it's ultimately all about the responsibility of adults. Just in my view it insults homosexuals in a way to take the Bill Maher point of view.


This letter to the editor was in one of my local papers today

"As a gay man living for more than two decades in Boston, I have known many gay men raised in strict Catholic homes, two of whom were molested by their priests. Not one of them grew up to be a closeted Republican who worked to criminalize his own behavior.

Foley should have sought professional help, as many of my friends did, long before he mixed alcohol, his own apparent homophobia, congressional pages, and the Internet, and brought himself to this ignominious place.

If he had taken personal responsibility for his mental health earlier, it would not be thrust upon him now by events he set in motion by his very failure to do so."
I never said it was an excuse or a rationalization and I agree that he didn't "have to" do anything. I just think it's important to look at it from as many angles as possible to get a more complete picture than just calling him a sick bastard and hanging him out to dry. I agree with many of your points. I do not agree that Maher was insulting to gays.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 01:43 PM   #174
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 05:59 AM
Well I think it's insulting to gay men to suggest that because they can't live an openly gay life, that it is somehow ok for them to hunt down teenage boys online. Most gay people in my view wouldn't even think of doing that. In that way I think it is insulting, to suggest that they would evade personal responsibility and somehow excuse that behavior because so many elements of society repress and want to repress who they are. I don't support that repression in any way, and as much as is possible (because I can't experience it directly) I do have sympathy.

I don't want to call Mark Foley a sick bastard and hang him out to dry, but I do want him to stand up and take responsibility for his choices. This is clearly not one incident, it is a pattern that appears to go back years. One former page said last night that Foley "somehow" got access to his AOL screenname (how he did that remains to be seen) and at first sent him sexual IM's without even telling him who he was. His pattern appears at the outset, from what we know so far, to be methodical and calculated- not the random impulses of a confused and repressed man.
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 01:53 PM   #175
Blue Crack Addict
 
joyfulgirl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 16,615
Local Time: 03:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Well I think it's insulting to gay men to suggest that because they can't live an openly gay life, that it is somehow ok for them to hunt down teenage boys online. Most gay people in my view wouldn't even think of doing that. In that way I think it is insulting, to suggest that they would evade personal responsibility and somehow excuse that behavior because so many elements of society repress and want to repress who they are. I don't support that repression in any way, and as much as is possible (because I can't experience it directly) I do have sympathy.

I don't want to call Mark Foley a sick bastard and hang him out to dry, but I do want him to stand up and take responsibility for his choices. This is clearly not one incident, it is a pattern that appears to go back years. One former page said last night that Foley "somehow" got access to his AOL screenname (how he did that remains to be seen) and at first sent him sexual IM's without even telling him who he was. His pattern appears at the outset, from what we know so far, to be methodical and calculated- not the random impulses of a confused and repressed man.
People respond to repression, trauma, life events, etc. in different ways. I am NOT defending this guy, nor am I making mass generalizations about all repressed people, gay or otherwise. Of course Foley should stand up and take responsibility for his actions. But so should the Republican party for trying to repress healthy expressions of sexuality because doing so can sometimes lead to sick behavior.
__________________
joyfulgirl is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 02:05 PM   #176
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,494
Local Time: 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Foley should have sought professional help, as many of my friends did, long before he mixed alcohol, his own apparent homophobia, congressional pages, and the Internet, and brought himself to this ignominious place.

If he had taken personal responsibility for his mental health earlier, it would not be thrust upon him now by events he set in motion by his very failure to do so."


true, but in today's GOP -- you cannot be openly gay.

and i have read the messages, and to me, they seem so silly, and somewhat predatory, but really an older man looking for some mental masturbation material to take with him just before he goes to bed.

it's all so classically repressed, and pathetic, and it is absolutely not an excuse for his behavior, though it is part of a piece of the puzzle that might explain why this type of behavior occurs and why the closet is such a dangerous, dehumanizing place.

and i'll be honest: i'd be much less understanding if Foley were heterosexual and these were teenaged girls. because at least heterosexuals have options available to them and a healthy, socially-approved way to exercise their sexuality in a natural narrative. homosexuals do not have this. this does not excuse predatory behavior, but it makes me more sympathetic to the predatory because i can imagine the private hell his life in the closet must be like, and how desires can be pathologized and we can find ourselves doing things we know are wrong and that we'd never actually do if our sexuality were allowed to grow and develop as naturally as any heterosexual.

healthy, happily adjusted gay man do not have masturbatory IM conversations with high schoolers.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 02:48 PM   #177
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 11:59 AM
From what I've read, my impression is that whether or not Foley is ultimately convicted of a crime will hinge on whether or not any of the propositioning IMs went across state lines (or were sent from outside DC), and involved IP addresses in states where the age of consent is higher.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 03:00 PM   #178
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,984
Local Time: 05:59 AM
I understand what you're saying Irvine, but then again there is plenty of mental and other material available for masturbating and all that-he made the choice to involve teenagers who were his subordinates, even if not technically/exactly. And to methodically seek them out, possibly even obtaining screennames illicitly. Of course healthy, happily adjusted gay men don't do that - and I am certainly aware of why so many of them cannot be happily adjusted. Somehow there has to be balance between the reason for that (society's prejudices and suppression) and personal responsibility. He could have made conscious choices to become a more happily adjusted gay man, albeit within the confines he was living in and under. I am sympathetic as to why that would be a problem for him in the GOP, but I just can't put that past my real issues with teenagers and pre-teens being solicited in any way via the Internet or by whatever means. I'm not saying that you're putting it past that, or that anyone else is.

Bottom line for me is- once you involve other people (and especially people who didn't agree to this type of contact)-well it's not just your personal problems and "demons" anymore. That's when you have to accept more personal responsibility than in any other type of scenario, and when certain reasons begin to look like excuses. I do feel sympathy for the man, but it can only go so far only because the teens were involved.

This is an interesting article in Slate

http://www.slate.com/id/2151018/&CDP=8702

"Many jurisdictions, among them the District of Columbia, have established 16 as the legal age of consent; in other states, that marker is 17 or 18. But D.C.'s age of consent won't necessarily get Rep. Foley off the hook. For one thing, some of his activities might have taken place in other jurisdictions with different laws, such as Florida, where the age of consent is 18. Moreover, a patchwork of state and federal statutes—including legislation that the congressman helped pass as co-chair of the House Caucus on Missing and Exploited Children—outline circumstances that can lead to tougher sentencing for an underlying sex crime or amount to punishable offenses in themselves, even if no sex occurred. Depending upon the specific law, such exacerbating circumstances might include enticing youth into sexual behavior via the Internet, engaging in graphic discussions of sexual acts with minors, abusing a position of authority in pursuit of sexual gratification, and plying adolescents with alcohol or drugs."
__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 03:16 PM   #179
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,494
Local Time: 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
Bottom line for me is- once you involve other people (and especially people who didn't agree to this type of contact)-well it's not just your personal problems and "demons" anymore. That's when you have to accept more personal responsibility than in any other type of scenario, and when certain reasons begin to look like excuses. I do feel sympathy for the man, but it can only go so far only because the teens were involved.


we are in total agreement here.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-05-2006, 03:27 PM   #180
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
From what I've read, my impression is that whether or not Foley is ultimately convicted of a crime will hinge on whether or not any of the propositioning IMs went across state lines (or were sent from outside DC), and involved IP addresses in states where the age of consent is higher.
not every wrong behavior
has a law against it

i agree Foley may not be convicted of a crime


however, in situations like this his actions really are indefensible


many politicians have had their careers end
for less questionable actions

bob livingstone comes to mind

after leading the charge against Clinton

he was set to take over for Gingrich as speaker
but a string of consensual affairs came to light and he was toast


In 2000, Rudy Gilianni was supposed to trounce Hillary when she first ran for the Senate in N Y
then news came of an adulterous affair and the GOP threw him under the tracks
and he would still be there if 911 had not happened
__________________

__________________
deep is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com