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Old 10-04-2006, 09:08 PM   #151
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Originally posted by AEON



I have always looked at the Republican Party as sort of a “last hope” to save my country from a long slide into moral bankruptcy. I admit – I have allowed myself to be deceived.
Well here's your problem!!! Why are you looking to the government to be your moral saviour?
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Old 10-04-2006, 11:25 PM   #152
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Originally posted by melon

I don't appreciate having someone else's morality legislatively imposed on me,

Melon
We do it all of the time. Every society does it. The only question - which Rule Book will we all decide to follow.
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Old 10-04-2006, 11:27 PM   #153
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Well, considering that a former aide to Foley has mentioned that Hastert knew about this two years prior to when Hastert claimed he knew about all this, #1 is looking to be the most logical answer.

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Hastert is really seeming like a man who lacks integrity. I won't be too quick to judge here - but it's not looking good.
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Old 10-04-2006, 11:40 PM   #154
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I doubt that, as well, but that's not what the writer of the article said.
I think the key word in the phrase "morally degenerate hypocrite" is hypocrite. See all your standard "morally degenerate" types who are making grade wads of cash, your Howard Sterns, your Marilyn Mansons, your Larry Flynts, aren't making any great moral claims.

Limbaugh is, which is what makes his morally degenerate behavior particularly loathesome. It show an appalling cynicism as well, in my opinion.

And there's a Biblical precedent for this type of criticism. Remember Jesus, friend of prostitutes and sinners? Check out what He had to say in Matthew chapter 23 to those who claimed to be standard-bearers of morality.
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Old 10-04-2006, 11:40 PM   #155
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Originally posted by AEON


We do it all of the time. Every society does it. The only question - which Rule Book will we all decide to follow.


i don't agree.

i think we make laws, and then laws are absorbed into the society as to what is and what is not "moral," and that's always a contested definition of morality.

i think it's immoral to lock up people who get caught with a small amount of marijuana, even though that might be the law. what they've done is illegal, but in my eyes, it is not immoral. likewise, if the age of consent is 16, it might be immoral in my eyes for a 50 year old to have sex with a 17 year old, but that does not make it illegal.

we conflate the two, and there are many laws that jive with my definition of morality -- it's immoral to kill, to rape, to molest, etc. however, just because something is illegal does not make it, by definition, immoral, and vice versa.

in most cases, morality is grafted on after the fact.
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Old 10-05-2006, 09:22 AM   #156
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From what Rule Book would an age of consent be derived, anyhow?
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Old 10-05-2006, 10:07 AM   #157
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From what Rule Book would an age of consent be derived, anyhow?


well, if the bible is the Rule Book, then the age of consent must be about 13, after all, if it was good enough for Mary then it's good enough for all of us.
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Old 10-05-2006, 10:21 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


I think the key word in the phrase "morally degenerate hypocrite" is hypocrite. See all your standard "morally degenerate" types who are making grade wads of cash, your Howard Sterns, your Marilyn Mansons, your Larry Flynts, aren't making any great moral claims.

Limbaugh is, which is what makes his morally degenerate behavior particularly loathesome. It show an appalling cynicism as well, in my opinion.

And there's a Biblical precedent for this type of criticism. Remember Jesus, friend of prostitutes and sinners? Check out what He had to say in Matthew chapter 23 to those who claimed to be standard-bearers of morality.
The author didn't use the term "hypocrite". These were his exact words:

If the term "moral degenerate" has any validity and can be fairly applied to anyone, there are few people who merit that term more than Rush Limbaugh. He is the living and breathing embodiment of moral degeneracy, with his countless overlapping sexual affairs, his series of shattered, dissolved marriages, his hedonistic and illegal drug abuse, his jaunts, with fistfulls of Viagra (but no wife), to an impoverished Latin American island renowned for its easy access to underage female prostitutes.
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:29 AM   #159
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My God, who's having affairs with Rush Limbaugh? Ew, that fat slob? Has he even SEEN his own penis in 20 years? Heh, he'd need to find prostitutes...
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:30 AM   #160
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It seems that Fox News has come up with the perfect solution for the Foley scandal.

Pretend he's a Democrat.



Google's catching on quick too, even calling Hastert a Dem.

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Old 10-05-2006, 11:56 AM   #161
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some interesting thoughts from The New Republic:


[q]Gay men, of course, went into a defensive crouch. Like Jews watching the Abramoff scandal, we winced at what we knew would be a collective blame-game. It always happens. There is no connection between homosexuality and an attraction to teenage boys--or at least, no more than there is between male heterosexuality and an attraction to teenage girls. But we know that, whenever a gay man is discovered in any relationship with a much younger man, the old pedophile smear will emerge, as, of course, it did in this case. This was not, in other words, "good for the gays."

Some comforted themselves with the thought that it wasn't good for the Republicans either. And there is some comfort there--purely on the hypocrisy front. The fact that, at the moment, it appears that the only law Foley may have broken was one he himself had helped pass is especially poignant. (The pages involved were of legal age according to the District of Columbia, but minors by the standard of an online predation law Foley championed.) There was even a video clip of Foley grandstanding with "America's Most Wanted." "If I were one of these sickos," he told the world, "I'd be nervous." Clearly not nervous enough.

Is it possible to feel sympathy for him? I guess I felt a twinge of it, as I feel when any gay man is subjected to public scorn and anger. And I do not want to doubt that he may have been molested himself as a teen; or that he might have an addiction problem; or that he has a psyche damaged by decades of internalized homophobia. What is the closet, after all, if it isn't the steadily crumbling facade of internal psychic damage?

But, in the end, none of this matters. Foley is entitled to his weaknesses and his pathologies. He is not entitled to drag young people in his care into them. If you read the extended instant-message trails--and I don't recommend it--you see that some of the teenagers he corresponded with also appear confused about their sexual orientation. Some continued the online chats past the gross-out moment and past obvious red flags. We should not condescend to male teenagers with roaring hormones. They know what they're doing, and yet, they don't know what they're doing. Some may even have been gay themselves, and curious about the world of online sex.

But that is not a mitigating factor. The role of older gay men toward teenage gay men should be to protect them, not to prey on them. Late adolescence and early adulthood are often difficult times for homosexuals, as they have to adopt a public and adult persona they may have a hard time coming to terms with in private or alone. The worst thing one can do to them at such an impressionable age, I think, is to initiate them into the cycle of shame and denial that comes with the closet. And that is what Foley did. He entangled the next generation in the pathology of his own.

He may, paradoxically, even have been generous and kind to the pages in other contexts. Several accounts actually speak well of his interaction with the post-pubescent serfs who work on the Hill. He didn't treat them with contempt or condescension, as others did. He took an interest in them, befriended them, and helped them in their careers. And we need not ascribe all of this to murky motives. Like other gay men existing in deeply homophobic institutions (Catholic priests, for example), Foley may have compartmentalized his life in ways that made him a good person in one box and an abuser in another. This is not an excuse for his behavior. But it does help explain the genuinely good feelings Foley seems to have inspired in many of his peers; the loyalty some of his protégés felt; and the stark discrepancy between that and his predatory behavior toward youngsters in his care. This, at least, strikes me as just as plausible an explanation for the contrast as too much scotch.

And it points to the obvious conclusion to this tawdry, depressing spectacle. There is something deeply sick about a Republican elite that is comfortable around gay people, dependent on gay people, staffed by gay people--and yet also rests on brutal exploitation of homophobia to win elections at the base. These public homophobes, just like the ones in the Vatican, may even tolerate gay misbehavior more readily than adjusted gay people do. If you treat gay sex in any form as a shameful secret to keep concealed, the line between adult, consensual contact and the sexual exploitation of the young may not seem so stark. That's how someone like Speaker Dennis Hastert could have chosen not to know: He was already choosing not to know Foley was gay. In this way, Hastert is a milquetoast, secular version of Cardinal Bernard Law.

[...]

It is this deeper, more nuanced hypocrisy that this episode exposes. The closet tolerants--and they include both the president and vice president--exist in a party that has built its electoral machine on systematic intolerance and the fueling of populist fear of homosexuals. This edifice cannot stand indefinitely, and the sudden collapse of Mark Foley's career may be a portent of what is to come. The old manners of GOP Washington are being buffeted by the countervailing currents of gay mainstreaming and political opportunism. At some point, Republicans are going to have to choose between the two.

[/q]
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Old 10-05-2006, 12:15 PM   #162
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some interesting thoughts from The New Republic:
At last someone actually thinking intelligently about this instead of the usual knee-jerk reactions (on both sides). Bill Maher was on Wolf Blitzer's show last night and made the point that while yes, what Foley did was wrong, if he had been allowed to live an openly gay life with a partner (and we know it's the Republicans who try to repress and legislate sexuality), he might not have to resort to hunting down teenage boys online. And I agree that 16-17 year old guys today are not necessarily sexually innocent. I just don't see this issue as being so black & white as a lot of people are making it out to be. Foley should be dealt with appropriately but I don't see the point in crucifying him.
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Old 10-05-2006, 12:15 PM   #163
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Originally posted by AEON

Hastert is really seeming like a man who lacks integrity. I won't be too quick to judge here - but it's not looking good.

He's a politician. I think his lack of integrity shouldn't be that surprising...

It is really apalling how he let something like this go unaccounted for because of politics. We're talking about pedophillia here, for Christ's sakes.

And omg, Paul... Is that for real???? oesgooglesearch:
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Old 10-05-2006, 12:16 PM   #164
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It seems that Fox News has come up with the perfect solution for the Foley scandal.

Pretend he's a Democrat.
That is just unbelievable!
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Old 10-05-2006, 12:20 PM   #165
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He's a politician. I think his lack of integrity shouldn't be that surprising...

It is really apalling how he let something like this go unaccounted for because of politics. We're talking about pedophillia here, for Christ's sakes.

And omg, Paul... Is that for real???? oesgooglesearch:
I disagree that this is about pedophilia. Pedophiles go after children. I don't think going after a 16-17 year old guy is quite the same thing as pedophilia. It's icky and wrong but some of these guys played along and are old enough to know not to if they don't want to. And believe me, I'm not interested in defending some sleazeball Republican but I just don't think it's the same as pedophilia.
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