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Old 10-04-2006, 06:11 PM   #136
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I just want to make sure I am following your logic here - if Foley sent these lewd e-mails to 16 a year old consenting non-subordinate male, then you would have no problem with them? (assuming 16 is the age of consent in the state where this occurs)


while i might have a moral problem, if the age of consent is 16, then i do not have a legal problem. there are things that are legal that i would never do and i find them immoral, but that doesn't mean they are or should be illegal.

we do not make laws encouraging one specific code of morality and outlaw anything that deviates from that code. if we did, you'd see the regulation of what goes on in your bedroom to an extreme degree -- missionary position, not during menstration, for pro-creation only, etc.

in our society, we leave the idea of "morality" up to the individual, up to a point -- we make illegal those activities which can be demonstrated to cause harm to the individual, another individual, or to society as a whole. thus, we do not legislate what you *should* be doing in your bedroom, but we do legislate and make illegal things that you *should not* be doing in your bedroom because they have been demonstrated to cause harm (ie, sex with a minor, sex with animals, etc.)
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Old 10-04-2006, 06:13 PM   #137
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Wikipedia - The Korowai tribe of southeastern Papua is one of the last surviving tribes in the world engaging in cannibalism

What if these folks immigrated and moved to a remote part of Wyoming? What moral rule set should apply?

since they are immigrating to our country, they will be subject to the laws of this country.



no eating people.
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Old 10-04-2006, 06:13 PM   #138
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Originally posted by AEON
I just want to make sure I am following your logic here - if Foley sent these lewd e-mails to 16 a year old consenting non-subordinate male, then you would have no problem with them? (assuming 16 is the age of consent in the state where this occurs)
I wholeheartedly believe in the concept of "statutory offenses," in addition to "Romeo & Juliet" laws, as long as they are equally applied between heterosexual and homosexual cases (and, unsurprisingly, many states have not done that).

What defines a "statutory offense," however, is determined by the states, not at the federal level. In this case, it appears that a 16 year old is legally defined as an "adult" when it comes to sex, and if two adults wish to engage in consensual sex acts, it is none of my business.

If you're looking for me to recoil in the "ick factor," that's not my style. Personally, I do find the idea of someone older being with someone incredibly younger to be gross, but if both consenting parties are legal adults, it is not my right to interfere.

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Old 10-04-2006, 06:29 PM   #139
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Originally posted by AEON
Wikipedia - The Korowai tribe of southeastern Papua is one of the last surviving tribes in the world engaging in cannibalism

What if these folks immigrated and moved to a remote part of Wyoming? What moral rule set should apply?
Properly applied secular humanism would negate the possibility of cannibalism, because the action infringes on the right to life, liberty, and happiness of the person being eaten.

That is a standard that transcends all religions, which makes it appropriate for a pluralistic society--and makes it a good argument when telling people of other religions--including the Korowai tribe--why their religious beliefs are wrong.

And it's the standard by which I know Christian prejudices are wrong, as well.

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Old 10-04-2006, 06:34 PM   #140
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And back to the sickness and madness of the GOP...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/...ley/index.html

Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A former aide to former Rep. Mark Foley said Wednesday he notified House Speaker Dennis Hastert's office of concerns about Foley's behavior over three years ago -- two year before previous accounts have suggested top GOP leaders knew of the issue, according to The Associated Press.

There was no immediate response to the report from Hastert's office.

Kirk Fordham told the AP about his warning after resigning Wednesday amid allegations that he tried to protect Foley from congressional inquiries into his inappropriate contacts with teenage pages.

Fordham was the top aide to Rep. Tom Reynolds, R-New York, and once held the same job for Foley. In his resignation statement, Frodham vigorously denied taking any inappropriate action on Foley's behalf.

"When I sought to help Congressman Foley and his family when his shocking secrets were being revealed, I did so as a friend of my former boss, not as Congressman Reynolds' chief of staff," Fordham said. "I reached out to the Foley family, as any good friend would, because I was worried about their emotional well-being. At the same time, I want it to be perfectly clear that I never attempted to prevent any inquiries or investigation of Foley's conduct by House officials or any other authorities."

Reynolds is the chairman of the National Republican Congressional Committee, which is working to keep the GOP in control of the House in November's elections. The scandal not only has rocked the Republican leadership but it has become an issue in Reynolds' upstate New York district just weeks before the vote.

"It is clear the Democrats are intent on making me a political issue in my boss's race, and I will not let them do so," Fordham wrote in his resignation.

Reynolds would not say Wednesday whether he asked Fordham to quit. However, Reynolds said he thought it was "inappropriate" for his chief of staff to negotiate with a news outlet over its coverage. And he said Fordham believed he was becoming a "distraction."

Foley, a six-term Florida Republican, resigned Friday after his e-mails to a teenage boy who had served as a congressional page became public -- and as ABC News was about to air more explicit records of instant messages the congressman exchanged with other pages.

ABC reported that Fordham offered the network an exclusive on Foley's resignation if it agreed not to air transcripts of the most explicit messages. Wednesday, citing unnamed GOP sources, it said Fordham had interceded with Republican leaders to keep concerns raised by the family of a Louisiana teen from the full three-member board that oversees the page program.

The network also reported that Fordham's associates consider him a scapegoat for Hastert, R-Illinois, who has been sharply criticized for his handling of the issue. But Ron Bonjean, a spokesman for the speaker, said Hastert had no advance knowledge of Fordham's resignation, nor did he demand it.
Conservatives rally behind Hastert

The resignation comes as key conservative House members voiced support for Hastert but questioned how he handled the Foley matter.

The call for Hastert's resignation came Tuesday in an editorial on The Washington Times Web site. The editorial charged that "either [Foley] was grossly negligent ... or he deliberately looked the other way."

A spokesman for Hastert said the speaker would not step down.

And in a statement released Wednesday, Rep. Mike Pence, R-Indiana, and Joe Pitts, R-Pennsylvania, said "regardless of our reservations about how this matter was handled administratively, we believe Speaker Hastert is a man of integrity who has led our conference honorably and effectively throughout the past eight years. Speaker Dennis Hastert should not resign.

Rep. Pence is chairman of the influential Republican Study Committee, and Pitts is chairman of the conservative Values Action Team.

A key Hastert ally, Republican Ray LaHood of Illinois, called the call for Hastert to step down "absolute nonsense."

"The speaker brought us through 9/11. He's helped the president with major legislative initiatives," LaHood told CNN on Wednesday.

"He's been a good, strong speaker and has been able to deal with ethical conduct of members of Congress. ... This idea he should resign is absolute nonsense, and it's just a lot of political fodder for people who want to make hay 35 days before the election," LaHood said.

Shadegg shows support

Arizona Republican Rep. John Shadegg also rallied to Hastert's side, by circulating a letter that says the calls for Hastert to resign "are unwarranted and fundamentally unfair."

The letter, dated Tuesday, said at least two newspapers, including the Miami Herald, knew of an e-mail exchange between Foley and a page "for months" and didn't view the contacts as significant.

"And, after conducting their own inquiries, they decided not to publish the story or pursue the matter further," the letter continued.

"To demand (Hastert's) resignation based on the current facts and before the investigation that he has called for is completed, is unwarranted and wrong," the letter said.

But another member of the Republican leadership, Rep. Roy Blunt of Missouri, said Tuesday said he would have handled the Foley situation differently, the AP reports.

"I think I could have given some good advice here, which is you have to be curious. You have to ask all the questions you can think of," Blunt said, according to the AP. "You absolutely can't decide not to look into activities because one individual's parents don't want you to."

CNN's Dana Bash, Deirdre Walsh and Andrea Koppel contributed to this report.
I'm glad that Hastert was caught in his lies.

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Old 10-04-2006, 06:41 PM   #141
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Foley's conduct disturbs me very deeply. I have always looked at the Republican Party as sort of a “last hope” to save my country from a long slide into moral bankruptcy. I admit – I have allowed myself to be deceived.
Here's your first mistake: treating elections as voting for the papacy, instead of treating it as voting for the Board of Directors of a corporation. I don't care what "good Christians" the board says they are. I want a board that runs an efficient, legal, and profitable company that will flourish in the long term.

In fact, to be honest, I am immediately suspect of any politician that touts his or her "Christian credentials," because the first question I ask is what he or she is trying to hide. This is a long-running political tactic that used to be exclusive to the Bible Belt, where a highly corrupt politician would run an exclusively "religious" campaign to deflect from his political failures. And now, over the last few elections, it seems that corrupt "Bible Belt tactics" have found their way into the entire country.

If you're looking to save anyone from "moral bankruptcy," look to yourself and your neighbors. I don't appreciate having someone else's morality legislatively imposed on me, just as I'm sure you wouldn't want Islamic Sharia law legislatively imposed on you. After all, according to many Islamic nations, we're the "Great Satan," you know.

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Old 10-04-2006, 06:54 PM   #142
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Originally posted by melon
And back to the sickness and madness of the GOP...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/10/...ley/index.html



I'm glad that Hastert was caught in his lies.

Melon
So, the Miami Herald and its reporters sat on the story. I wonder why?

I'm sure the U.S. government didn't pay them to do so. Newspapers and reporters have way too much integrity to do gov't's PR work. Well, most of the time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mia...id_journalists

Government-paid journalists
On September 8, 2006, Miami Herald's president Jesús Díaz Jr. fired three journalists because they had allegedly been paid by the United States Government to work in anti-Cuba propaganda TV and radio channels. The three were Pablo Alfonso, Wilfredo Cancio Isla and Olga Connor.[1]. Less than a month later, and following the preasure of the Cuban comunity in Miami, Díaz resigned after reinstating the fired journalists. Nevertheless, he continues claiming that such payments, specially if coming from organisms of the sate, violate the principles of journalistic independence[2]. At least other 7 journalists that don't work at the Herald, namely Miguel Cossio, Carlos Alberto Montaner, Juan Manuel Cao, Ariel Remos, Omar Claro, Helen Aguirre Ferre, Paul Crespo and Ninoska Perez-Castellón, were also paid for programs on Radio Martí or TV Martí [3], both financiated by the government of the United States though the Broadcasting Board of Governors, receiving a total of between 15,000 and 175,000 USD since 2001.
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Old 10-04-2006, 07:31 PM   #143
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So far I've heard 3 conspiracy theories related to the timing of all this.

1) House leadership including, Dennis Hastert, knew about the messages but delayed (pardon the pun) acting because control of the House may tip on one single seat.
2) Some Democrats and/or sympathetic media members sat on the story until 1 month before the election so as to maximize the damage to Republicans.
3) Gay Rights activists, angry at Foley's refusal to come out of the closet, exposed him.

One of them is probably true. I wonder which one?
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Old 10-04-2006, 07:35 PM   #144
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Well, considering that a former aide to Foley has mentioned that Hastert knew about this two years prior to when Hastert claimed he knew about all this, #1 is looking to be the most logical answer.

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Old 10-04-2006, 07:54 PM   #145
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Before guessing which conspiracy theory might be true, I'd rather wait for a full investigation to take place.

Anyhow, to paraphrase what Charley Rangel said today, if Hastert resigns, it's bad for Republicans. If he doesn't resign, it's bad for Republicans. And that is that.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:06 PM   #146
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if Hastert resigns, it's bad for Republicans. If he doesn't resign, it's bad for Republicans. And that is that.
It's hard to feel sorry for them.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:11 PM   #147
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Before guessing which conspiracy theory might be true, I'd rather wait for a full investigation to take place.

Anyhow, to paraphrase what Charley Rangel said today, if Hastert resigns, it's bad for Republicans. If he doesn't resign, it's bad for Republicans. And that is that.
They're in full destruction mode. Macaca, now this. Can't wait to see what comes up next.
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:36 PM   #148
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But now, the same Democrats who are incensed that Bush's National Security Agency was listening in on al-Qaida phone calls are incensed that Republicans were not reading a gay congressman's instant messages.--Ann Coulter

(made me laugh anyway)
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Old 10-04-2006, 08:52 PM   #149
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That Ann Coulter bit just goes to show you she doesn't give a damn about morality - it's all political. I'm even guessing that she'd go as far to defend a rapist if it somehow suited her political purposes. (I'm sure if it fit her political purposes she'd even go as far as to defend U2's decision to release another Best Of )
How do you defend this man's actions?
I'm sick of hearing about how he's gay..as if that matters...he's allegedly a child pornographer, and that's all that matters.
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Old 10-04-2006, 09:07 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


Some people are pointing out 1) The messages between the two indicate some level of consensus
Where was there CONSENT? Where?

Quote:
Originally posted by AEON

2) he was not Foley's subordinate (I am not exactly sure what a page does - but I guess this kid didn't answer to Foley).
He sure the hell was...

You're really stretching.
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