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Old 04-06-2007, 09:53 AM   #46
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Originally posted by Liesje


IMO, the concepts of paradise, immortality, faith vs. works = heaven, etc are more specific theological distinctions and aren't exactly relevant for this type of debate. You can have a faith in something larger than yourself that has nothing to do with the Christian concept of Heaven.
And the concept of an immortal soul or spirit goes far beyond Christianity, ritualised burial of the dead to prepare them for an afterlife has happened in lots of different cultures.
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Old 04-06-2007, 10:07 AM   #47
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I think her point was more that there isn't an automatic connection between the two; you can believe in a God, or 'something greater than us' as anitram put it, while being agnostic on the question of an afterlife and quite disinterested in it.
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Old 04-06-2007, 10:11 AM   #48
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But by the same token is most peoples faith built on such existential feelings; or the religious institutions to begin with? Death is a far more universal condition than reflecting on the order of the universe.
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:19 PM   #49
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I'm a Christian and I "believe in science" insofar as I don't recall ever refusing to accept scientific theory because my faith got in the way or something. I don't dwell on death or afterlife, regardless of what other cultures do or assume Christians do. The Christian creation narrative in Genesis speaks of death as a completely natural, cyclical process. As a Christian, I simply believe that I am better off in life following the example of Jesus Christ, who showed compassion to ALL people. Jesus did not dwell on death or the afterlife; he taught people how to behave towards each other while living. I'm not sure why you're thinking death and faith in general are so inextricably linked that they have to decide how someone feels about one or the other. If I wasn't a Christian, I'd probably feel the same about death - it's a natural, cyclical process. What I think or believe about any sort of afterlife is not informed or refuted by any scientific claim, so it doesn't really matter.
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:44 PM   #50
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Your theology informs your life choices in society, but I still think that faith is a reasonable escape from either uncertainty or certain inexistence; I think that belivers that have so much trouble with atheism in general believe that without such hope nihilism and moral decay are the only outcomes.

As far as science goes it is a philosophy of investigation that should make an observer strive for objectivity, it is far removed from faith; which is at least in part emotional and subjective - problems don't arise from non-overlapping theology and reason but from theology that requires the material world to be twisted around it to be affirmed.
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Old 04-06-2007, 08:54 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Your theology informs your life choices in society, but I still think that faith is a reasonable escape from either uncertainty or certain inexistence; I think that belivers that have so much trouble with atheism in general believe that without such hope nihilism and moral decay are the only outcomes.

As far as science goes it is a philosophy of investigation that should make an observer strive for objectivity, it is far removed from faith; which is at least in part emotional and subjective - problems don't arise from non-overlapping theology and reason but from theology that requires the material world to be twisted around it to be affirmed.
I don't disagree with either statement. As for the first one, that is NOT at all how I feel and I can't stand people that do think that way, but I'm aware of just how many people are like that.

You've continued to bring up very specific problems that can arise when reconciling faith and science, but it doesn't mean one can't have faith in something AND be objective and support science. I mean, you can take any sort of debate and come up with specific circumstances where some people will make unreasonable conclusions for whatever reason. I prefer to look at it more generally. In general, I don't see why it's so hard for people to have a faith and believe in science. I don't think it's fair to say that if people are subjective in one area of their life, they're doomed to be entirely subjective towards everything else. I'm known for being a very objective, rational, practical, and analytical person and one reason why I value my personal faith so much is that it is one area of my life that allows me to challenge myself to be more subjective. Reality is very subjective, let's face it.
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:22 PM   #52
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Human comprehension of reality is subjective; reality itself not so much.
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Old 04-07-2007, 05:35 AM   #53
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Human comprehension of reality tends to inform what reality is...reality for the majority of the human populace is how they live their lives and interact with other people, not how particles may interact, or how the universe may be slowly expanding etc

Reality does tend to be very subjective, because how we interact with it, influences how real it is to us.

This just gets messy
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Old 04-07-2007, 06:57 AM   #54
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ahh just to clear up what I was saying....reality to most people isn't the science and hard facts...its a jumble of emotions and feelings that people deal with
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Old 04-07-2007, 12:26 PM   #55
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Well they damn well should learn to cut away human connection and become for all intensive purposes a machine. I know that I can't trust my perceptions to give me an accurate picture of reality, but that isn't to say that makes reality an inherently subjective concept.
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Old 04-09-2007, 09:53 AM   #56
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"Well they damn well should learn to cut away human connection and become for all intensive purposes a machine. I know that I can't trust my perceptions to give me an accurate picture of reality, but that isn't to say that makes reality an inherently subjective concept" .wanderer...that is a ridiculous thing to say. Emotion is as important of a factor of human definition as so called 'objective logic' is. 'Love' is not objective and I know for sure that it is one thing I wouldn't want to live without.
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:03 AM   #57
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I agree, popsadie and LJT. I'm not sure how one can assume that reality even exists without ANY human perception. Do we not use our own senses to make assumptions about reality vs. perceived reality to being with? Yes, everything exists and functions tangibly at some level, regardless of how it is perceived, but so what?


It reminds me of the age-old debate - does a tree fall in a forest if no one hears it?
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Old 04-09-2007, 10:20 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Well they damn well should learn to cut away human connection and become for all intensive purposes a machine. I know that I can't trust my perceptions to give me an accurate picture of reality, but that isn't to say that makes reality an inherently subjective concept.
Ain't never going to happen and shouldn't...that's just a dystopia waiting to happen. No offence is meant Wanderer but sometimes from your posts, you seem to have a too academic view of life, while your knowledge and general scientific approach to things I find extremely commendable, you do tend to take it to extremes.
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Old 04-09-2007, 11:59 AM   #59
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So much reason in the universe...but no reason for the universe?
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Old 04-09-2007, 12:17 PM   #60
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You believe God is the reason for the universe, I believe that we just don't know why the universe exists, and what was before the big bang.

I don't believe in god, and if I get proven wrong, fine. If not, fine.
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