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Old 04-05-2007, 11:45 AM   #16
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Originally posted by dazzlingamy
But WHY do you believe in him? Why are you compelled to believe in some divinity? What is the purpose of your belief?

See this is why I fundamentally don't understand. If your faith is not to make you feel better about dying and purpose in life, which so many people question etc, then why have it? What does it offer you?
It offers me a relationship with God. That's the work of Christ. God, who came down here, died in our spot for our crap, then conquered death creating a loophole in the own laws he set in place and now I don't have to be holy on my own, I'm holy as I accept Christ and his holiness. God new we couldn't do it on our own. That's what's so fascinating about it -- he reached out to us.
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:54 AM   #17
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Originally posted by LJT


Fruits from tomatoes and pumpkins to apples and pears are the reproductive organs of the plant they come from, they are the ripenened ovaries of the plant containing the seeds. So yes the tomato plant has sex organs, they can heal, plants can move in a limited fashion, they will always turn to face the sun, they can feel, does a venus fly trap for instance just guess when a fly has landed on its leaf? They have 'babies' that would be their seeds. Plants breathe all the time, they respire just as we do, they need oxygen, but they also create more oxygen which keeps this planet alive. The tomato plant will also digest food, and excrete waste.

Vegetables are also just food stores for the actual plant we get it from, a potato is basically like our own fat reserves in our body.

Flowering plants are really the pinnacle of plant evolution, they can utilise sexual and asexual reproduction depending on how conditions suit them, their spores (pollen) can survive for thousands of years....something we cannot do.

I find it more interesting how similar we actually are, than how different everything is, from the earthworm up the basic body form for all animals is very similar...people can either see that as a godly plan or evolution keeping the things that work

On a whole plants are a lot (probably by a couple million times) more important to life on Earth than people are...they convert engergy from the sun into the source of food and energy for all life, while also providing us with what we breathe....so plants are much more amazing than us
You make some good points. You got me. However, you can't say it's all done on the same level as a human. My point was there's too much "purpose" behind the human body. It seems intentional that we have teeth to chew food, taste buds to enjoy it, an ability to swallow, digest and discard the rest. On top of it, we happen to get nutrients from it that we need to grow and be healthy . . . and there's an abudant natural food source that just happens to be here too. It sounds like it's more than just simple chance, and to ignore that, to me, seems goofy.

To point to the science/design of a tomato only strengthens the point I'm making I think. There's too much behind it that seems intentional.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:30 PM   #18
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To point to the science/design of a tomato only strengthens the point I'm making I think. There's too much behind it that seems intentional.

couldn't the apparent intentionality of it really be a reflection of the logic and order you've imposed upon it?

food tastes good so i will eat it and not starve; my teeth can tear and grind because my body finds nutrients in both plants and animals that are beneficial to me; sex feels good so i'll do it over and over and repopulate the earth. it seems to me that what we derive from "design" is less to do than with being born equipped to deal with the earth and more to do with milennia of adaptation.

and, what's the intentionality of the appendix?
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:37 PM   #19
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Food has taste because our brain has developed this taste to indicate whether food is good or bad.
Before we had all this artificial stuff that made food tasting sour but not being dangerous, we had to rely on our taste buds that told us whether we should go on eating that thing or rather take something else.

You can go on and on and always say it is like it is because God wanted it to be that way, or because evolution used it's millions or billions of years of finetuning to make it all working that way.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:49 PM   #20
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Originally posted by coemgen


You make some good points. You got me. However, you can't say it's all done on the same level as a human. My point was there's too much "purpose" behind the human body. It seems intentional that we have teeth to chew food, taste buds to enjoy it, an ability to swallow, digest and discard the rest. On top of it, we happen to get nutrients from it that we need to grow and be healthy . . . and there's an abudant natural food source that just happens to be here too. It sounds like it's more than just simple chance, and to ignore that, to me, seems goofy.

To point to the science/design of a tomato only strengthens the point I'm making I think. There's too much behind it that seems intentional.
There is plenty that is intentional behind plants....the reason we eat the fruit is because of the juicy tasty flesh.....if it wasn't tasty the plants seeds would never get propagated.

"too much purpose" behind humans doesn't make much sense....everything in nature tends to have some purpose behind it, with each organism have different adaptations that fit their purpose, plant cells in leaves have chloroplasts which take energy from the sun to covert into food for themselves and as a by product food for us, and oxygen for themselves and us.

Their mechanisms of digestion and respiring are all about as complicated as our own really, most people could not tell the difference between a plant cell and a human cell, their basic function and structure is relatively the same.

From single cell bacteria right up to worms, dogs and us, they all have the ability to 'sense' in some way, digest food, respire...each has very different ways of doing it but all are generally optimum for those organism's lifestyle.

Us humans are not the optimum in design by any length of the imagination, the healing abilities of a worm or salamanders are far greater than our own to the point of regeneration...

All that said I believe in God but as someone who lit the spark rather than a designer of anything. Maybe his hope was that one day we would evolve to the point where we have the capacity to understand everything....a *boom*you're created now, kind of design is far too static for my liking.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:52 PM   #21
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i do think, though, that we can shortchange our own experiences a bit.

i clearly fall on the side of those who think that meaning is only what we create, but all the meaning i might create i don't think can be explained away by a series of biological reactions.

take love. genuine, romantic love. yes, of course it serves a function and can fit well into any sort of evolutionary explanation, but is that all of the experience? are there things that we fell that we cannot express with words, or even with thoughts? what are we to make of that?
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:12 PM   #22
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I don't think everything is strictly biological with humans, I was just challenging coemgen's assertion that human's are very different biologically from everything else as in we are some form of superbeing so different to everything else.

Somewhere along the line we developed conscious thought that has freed us to an extent from basic biological chores, we're the God of our own biology these days if you get my meaning, not sure I do myself

I also have trouble with evolutionary theorists that apply evolution outside of biology and into sociolgy, society and culture etc Evolution I really don't think can be used to explain all humans have done and feel.
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Old 04-05-2007, 02:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen


It offers me a relationship with God. That's the work of Christ. God, who came down here, died in our spot for our crap, then conquered death creating a loophole in the own laws he set in place and now I don't have to be holy on my own, I'm holy as I accept Christ and his holiness. God new we couldn't do it on our own. That's what's so fascinating about it -- he reached out to us.
I guess my question is, then why were we created "unholy" to begin with? Why create something that doesn't fit into God's own plan?

Was sending His Son to earth a way of admitting a flaw or mistake in the plan?

I'm the type of person who just has to know why or how. It sucks, as you can't always get a answer, so you're left uncertain or even unhappy. But, it's the way God created me right?
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:04 PM   #24
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I guess my question is, then why were we created "unholy" to begin with? Why create something that doesn't fit into God's own plan?

Was sending His Son to earth a way of admitting a flaw or mistake in the plan?

I'm the type of person who just has to know why or how. It sucks, as you can't always get a answer, so you're left uncertain or even unhappy. But, it's the way God created me right?

We weren't created unholy to begin with. We're "made in his image." Through the law of free will though, our selfish nature has caused us to do things that are out of God's will. We chose to do things our way, which sometimes ends up in some level of hurt. We chose our way over God's way and separate ourselves. Historically, blood had to be spilt to "cover" these marks against us. If "sin" leads to death, then "life" or blood had to cover it. It used to be a spotless lamb was sacrificed for a person's sins. When Christ came, he was called the Lamb of God. God made the sacrifice for us. He provided the spotless lamb whose blood would cover our sins. That's the beauty of it. God did the dirty work for us. All we have to do is say thank you, and try to live a spotless life.

Yes, God created you to have a desire to know why and how things are the way they are. I don't think it sucks though. It can be frustrating at times when an answer isn't there yet, but I think it makes life more interesting.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



couldn't the apparent intentionality of it really be a reflection of the logic and order you've imposed upon it?

food tastes good so i will eat it and not starve; my teeth can tear and grind because my body finds nutrients in both plants and animals that are beneficial to me; sex feels good so i'll do it over and over and repopulate the earth. it seems to me that what we derive from "design" is less to do than with being born equipped to deal with the earth and more to do with milennia of adaptation.

and, what's the intentionality of the appendix?
So you're saying everything that exists is just there by chance? It takes more faith for me to believe that than to believe there's intentions behind it all.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:27 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Food has taste because our brain has developed this taste to indicate whether food is good or bad.
Before we had all this artificial stuff that made food tasting sour but not being dangerous, we had to rely on our taste buds that told us whether we should go on eating that thing or rather take something else.

You can go on and on and always say it is like it is because God wanted it to be that way, or because evolution used it's millions or billions of years of finetuning to make it all working that way.
It's funny, you make evolution sound like a God.

Which, btw, I'm not entirely opposed to evolution.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:36 PM   #27
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Originally posted by LJT


There is plenty that is intentional behind plants....the reason we eat the fruit is because of the juicy tasty flesh.....if it wasn't tasty the plants seeds would never get propagated.

"too much purpose" behind humans doesn't make much sense....everything in nature tends to have some purpose behind it, with each organism have different adaptations that fit their purpose, plant cells in leaves have chloroplasts which take energy from the sun to covert into food for themselves and as a by product food for us, and oxygen for themselves and us.

Their mechanisms of digestion and respiring are all about as complicated as our own really, most people could not tell the difference between a plant cell and a human cell, their basic function and structure is relatively the same.

From single cell bacteria right up to worms, dogs and us, they all have the ability to 'sense' in some way, digest food, respire...each has very different ways of doing it but all are generally optimum for those organism's lifestyle.

Us humans are not the optimum in design by any length of the imagination, the healing abilities of a worm or salamanders are far greater than our own to the point of regeneration...

All that said I believe in God but as someone who lit the spark rather than a designer of anything. Maybe his hope was that one day we would evolve to the point where we have the capacity to understand everything....a *boom*you're created now, kind of design is far too static for my liking.
Oh, I agree with you. The natural world is a thing to marvel at. Not just humans. I'm a fan of nature and wildlife. (You're not talking to Jerry effing Falwell here.)
However, there's still something special about human kind. A monkey may be close to us in its makeup, but it can't play guitar like the Edge. A cheetah may be beautiful and fast, but it can't design a Mac. Etc. Etc. There's something special going on here that separates us, even though we're part of the natural world, too. At least I think so.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:51 PM   #28
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So you're saying everything that exists is just there by chance? It takes more faith for me to believe that than to believe there's intentions behind it all.


no, it developed -- i.e., evolved -- due to necessity.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:53 PM   #29
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We weren't created unholy to begin with. We're "made in his image." Through the law of free will though, our selfish nature has caused us to do things that are out of God's will. We chose to do things our way, which sometimes ends up in some level of hurt. We chose our way over God's way and separate ourselves. Historically, blood had to be spilt to "cover" these marks against us. If "sin" leads to death, then "life" or blood had to cover it. It used to be a spotless lamb was sacrificed for a person's sins. When Christ came, he was called the Lamb of God. God made the sacrifice for us. He provided the spotless lamb whose blood would cover our sins. That's the beauty of it. God did the dirty work for us. All we have to do is say thank you, and try to live a spotless life.

while i understand that this is an explanation of your worldview, this doesn't help dialogue.

you're presenting articles of faith as fact, as worthy of examination as photosynthtesis.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:56 PM   #30
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while i understand that this is an explanation of your worldview, this doesn't help dialogue.

you're presenting articles of faith as fact, as worthy of examination as photosynthtesis.
I was simply answering the question that I was asked. What do you expect me to say?
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