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Old 09-07-2005, 10:54 AM   #16
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Originally posted by corianderstem
If Clinton had been in charge during this disaster and we had the same results, you can bet your sweet ass people (including liberals) would still be demanding answers.

Much of the anger out there right now is NOT about Bush bashing.

And PUH-LEEZE, this was a poll of 609 freaking people. How is that anyway representative of freaking ANYTHING?


O.k., I'll take your bet and raise you on the sweet ass people.



Yes...609 people. I would say that's far more representative than the commentary here in FYM - where 85% or more of threads and posted articles have been primarily about Bush bashing or administration bashing or Barbara Bush bashing or Dick Chaney bashing.
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Old 09-07-2005, 10:55 AM   #17
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Originally posted by Westport

Yes...609 people. I would say that's far more representative than the commentary here in FYM - where 85% or more of threads and posted articles have been primarily about Bush bashing or administration bashing or Barbara Bush bashing or Dick Chaney bashing.

Well said.
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Old 09-07-2005, 10:57 AM   #18
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To liberals it doesn't really matter how it could be Bush's fault. He's to blame by default.


yes, Newt Gingrich is such a liberal.

please, stop with the Coulterisms and using the word "liberal" as if it had any sort of meaning beyond your own political expediency.

let's see what the polls say in a week or two.

David Gergen -- hardly a "liberal" by your definition, and advisor to Republican and Democatic presidents -- spoke about this poll this morning and he essentially dismissed it, saying that people are still putting together the pieces of the puzzle and assessing the damage for themselves.

just wait.
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Old 09-07-2005, 10:57 AM   #19
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there is plenty of blame that should be heading this way... of course, the bush haters in the press, of which there are many, are using this opening as an opportunity to smack him up... using every angle they can... even going as far as to blaming the actual hurricaine on bush not signing kyoto.

the reality is that equal blame can be placed on the local, state and federal governments... that includes new orleans' african-american mayor, louisiana's democratic governor, and the republican president.

people are blaming the lack of response on race... yet the african-american mayor of new orleans had evacuees go to the superdome and the convention center, yet did not provide adequette security, food, water, beds, bathrooms, bathing facilities, power generators, etc. etc. etc. that was his job, and he failed... miserably.

it's the job of the governor of louisiana to call in the national guard. but she, a democrat mind you, did not have national guardsmen in place before the storm struck... one simple phone call would have had these men/women in place to move in the second the tragedy took place. but of course, in a country obsessed with the bottom line, she didn't want to waste tax payer dollars on something that might happen, so this was not done. that was her job, and she failed... miserably.

after the tragedy in new orleans struck, it was the job of FEMA and the Office of Homeland Security to get the appropriate personel, equipment & supplies to assist in the recovery efforts, clean-up and rebuilding. the director of FEMA, by his own admission did not even know that the levee's had broken in new orleans until tuesday afternoon... even though the story was posted on the new york times webpage monday evening. an organization that was put in place... Homeland Security... to provide an immediate response to large scale national emergencies, took 3 days to get mobolized. all of this was the job of brown and chertoff... they failed... miserably.

which leads us, finally, to president bush. he put these men in charge. they are under his watch. so if they fail, he fails. as was already said once in this thread... "the buck stops here." his entire administration... the reason why i voted for him a second time despite disagreeing with him often... is based around securing our nation against another attack, while at the same time putting the proper preparations into place just in case something happened here again. well here was a perfect test run of a large chunk of what he based his entire campaign around... and it, and therfore he, failed... miserably.

let us not let anyone off the hook... anyone...

but let's not let our party affiliations skew our vision, leading us to take shots just for the sake of taking shots. there's plenty of shit to throw around as it is... no need to make up that which does not exist.

cheers,

H

registered republican and voter for bush... twice.
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Old 09-07-2005, 10:59 AM   #20
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Originally posted by elfyx



I'll let the ignorance of this comment fall under its own weight.


You just don't get it do you? People see through the constant anger and blame liberals project towards Bush. Didn't you learn anything from the past presidential election?

I'll let the ingnorance of people like you and the ignorance of the democratic party continue to allow more and more republican election wins.
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Old 09-07-2005, 10:59 AM   #21
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Originally posted by Westport
Yes...609 people. I would say that's far more representative than the commentary here in FYM - where 85% or more of threads and posted articles have been primarily about Bush bashing or administration bashing or Barbara Bush bashing or Dick Chaney bashing.


oh fuck that.

criticizing a DISASTEROUS reaction to a natural disaster is anything but simplistic Bush bashing.

everyone, but EVERYONE, on all sides of the political spectrum is aghast with how incompetent government was at all levels, but especially the federal level and have marvelled at how ineffectual and callow Bush has been.
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:00 AM   #22
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It WON"T be a political necessity. That's what maufactured polls like this (where the process of selection choosing those 609 people is NOT revealed) one are for. They're using every means at thier disposal to try to teach us what to think and make us forget what we saw last week . From now on, people who are angry and want a Commission to get answers will be fighting "polls" and thus the perception that they are "out of touch" with the rest of America. At this point, this early in the game, anger cuts across al politcal parties and EVERONE wants answers.

Bush has said he will lead an "investigation" to find out what went wrong. But they lead nowhere. Remember the "investigation" into Abu Gharib? Bush and Ashcroft gave their "testimony" behind closed doors. Who knows, maybe they just sat around with the judge and drank coffee and had a laugh for an hour. In contrast, a Commission is by nature a purely public excecise, since it necessitates how and investigation will be conducted. There will have to be public testimony from all relevant parties, who can be subpeonoed to testify, and the panel can subpenoa documents. Bush and co will point to these "polls" and say, "the people are not angry at us" and if any group (even those set up by refugess, and don't think they won't eventually organize of they are ignored--but Bush and co will see to that by making everyone blame only the locals) tries to march or sue the gov't (like the 9/11 familes did) for answers, they'll say, "You're out of touch. Wake up and MOVE ON" (no pun intended.) This is a brilliant way to sow the seeds for the renewed politcal polarization of America.

I find it strange that on Friday, people said 85% they did not like Bush's initial handlng of the disaster. They were distrustful of photo ops. But now, after one day of baby kissing during the 2nd week, the polls have turned around? COME ON. I think it has to do with a lot of the media being kept away from refugees and not asking hard0hitting questions like they did last week, and the sudden, disappeaance of local officials from the airwaves whne Bush began this second tour, even though they were allover on Firday and sAt. Again, this goes back to renwed coroprate control after they had lost it. Muzzling reporters again .

Hey, I took a course in public relations and learned some very unbsavory things. I was expecting this.

All I can say is, if we allow them to brainwash us into not pressuring for Federal reform and Federal accountabilty (as well as local), if they make us forget how Homeland Security had its share of the blame for failing us, then we deserve whatever in the future we get.
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:00 AM   #23
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to Irvine.
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:01 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
there is plenty of blame that should be heading this way... of course, the bush haters in the press, of which there are many, are using this opening as an opportunity to smack him up... using every angle they can... even going as far as to blaming the actual hurricaine on bush not signing kyoto.

the reality is that equal blame can be placed on the local, state and federal governments... that includes new orleans' african-american mayor, louisiana's democratic governor, and the republican president.

people are blaming the lack of response on race... yet the african-american mayor of new orleans had evacuees go to the superdome and the convention center, yet did not provide adequette security, food, water, beds, bathrooms, bathing facilities, power generators, etc. etc. etc. that was his job, and he failed... miserably.

it's the job of the governor of louisiana to call in the national guard. but she, a democrat mind you, did not have national guardsmen in place before the storm struck... one simple phone call would have had these men/women in place to move in the second the tragedy took place. but of course, in a country obsessed with the bottom line, she didn't want to waste tax payer dollars on something that might happen, so this was not done. that was her job, and she failed... miserably.

after the tragedy in new orleans struck, it was the job of FEMA and the Office of Homeland Security to get the appropriate personel, equipment & supplies to assist in the recovery efforts, clean-up and rebuilding. the director of FEMA, by his own admission did not even know that the levee's had broken in new orleans until tuesday afternoon... even though the story was posted on the new york times webpage monday evening. an organization that was put in place... Homeland Security... to provide an immediate response to large scale national emergencies, took 3 days to get mobolized. all of this was the job of brown and chertoff... they failed... miserably.

which leads us, finally, to president bush. he put these men in charge. they are under his watch. so if they fail, he fails. his entire administration... the reason why i voted for him a second time despite disagreeing with him often... is based around securing our nation against another attack, while at the same time putting the proper preparations into place just in case something happened here again. well here was a perfect test run of a large chunk of what he based his entire campaign around... and it, and therfore, he failed... miserably.

let us not let anyone off the hook... anyone...

but let's not let our party affiliations skew our vision, leading us to take shots just for the sake of taking shots. there's plenty of shit to throw around as it is... no need to make up that which does not exist.

cheers,

H

registered republican and voter for bush... twice.

Very well said.
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:01 AM   #25
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I am sure the mathematicians who work for CNN and USA Today know what they are doing. But why depend on sound mathematics and statistical analysis when undeducated knee jerk reactions are so much easier?
I'm sure they do, at least as much as any other pollster does. 609 is a smaller sample size than many polls but although I haven't seen any info on the methodology, I assume they used the normal procedures for obtaining a representative sample. I'll try to find some more info on that later though.

In any case, I think that even depending on the "sound mathematics and statistical analysis" of this poll doesn't give a good account of Bush's response. As I said in my previous post, more people disapprove than approve of his response and people have a more favourable view of local officials response than Bush's response.

So even using the evidence you prefer (ie this poll) doesn't give a positive view of Bush's actions.
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:02 AM   #26
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You just don't get it do you? People see through the constant anger and blame liberals project towards Bush. Didn't you learn anything from the past presidential election?

I'll let the ingnorance of people like you and the ignorance of the democratic party continue to allow more and more republican election wins.


yes.

i learned that having the president and vice president tell people that they will die if the vote for democrats while at the same time tapping into the huge currents of homophobia stoked by churches across the heartland while resorting to the lowest of the lowest poltical attack ads of blatant lies wins you elections.
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:02 AM   #27
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Headache, can we just post that over and over again in all the threads pertaining to Hurricane Katrina? That was very well-said and pretty much sums up what I feel ... other than who I voted for.
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:02 AM   #28
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Originally posted by Irvine511




oh fuck that.

criticizing a DISASTEROUS reaction to a natural disaster is anything but simplistic Bush bashing.

everyone, but EVERYONE, on all sides of the political spectrum is aghast with how incompetent government was at all levels, but especially the federal level and have marvelled at how ineffectual and callow Bush has been.


Just read half of your own threads and postings.
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:04 AM   #29
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Just read half of your own threads and postings.


yes.

you'll find them well supported, researched, focused on all levels of government and pulling from respected, non-partisan sources such as the NYT, WaPo, LAT, various *conservative* blogs, and nightly news casts.

but why bother thinking?
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Old 09-07-2005, 11:04 AM   #30
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Also: A friendly mod reminder, please try to conduct your discussion without calling others ignorant or making broad generalisations about people based on their political beliefs. Obviously there are strong opinions on both sides of the discussion but please try to keep this thread friendly, civil and respectful of others. Thank-you.
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