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Old 08-07-2005, 06:36 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
if religious folk could focus on those two things instead of the gays and war i think they would make a good turn around.
See, the thing is, most of us ARE, but we're not scandalous enough to make the evening news.
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Old 08-07-2005, 08:04 PM   #17
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That was part of the point I tried making earlier. You dont see some of the more subtle things because they arent being broadcasted aloud.
Isnt everybody entitled to their own opinion? Is it more offensive for christians to make it known that they dont agree with gay marriage than it is for gays to make it known that they dont agree with the christian views?
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Old 08-07-2005, 08:35 PM   #18
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Re: Civil discussion on Christianity???

Quote:
Originally posted by echo0001


Before I've even read the other responses, so forgive if I repeat what some others have said.

1. All those nice, balanced, this-is-my-religion-but-it-doesn't-have-to-be-yours Christians out there might try to corner some of the reactionary, fanatical, and\or fundamentalist Christians who are trying so hard to give Christianity in general a bad name and explain to them what the first amendment means.

2. Quit trying to shove your religion down the throats of those who don't share it (I tend to think that the biggest problem with Christianity is the evangelic nature of the whole thing.)

3. Understand that I am free to choose my religion. Just because I am an American and it says 'In God We Trust' on the money, doesn't mean I have to.

4. Stop telling me I'm going to hell because--
a) I support a woman's right to choose;
b) I'm not married, and I still occasionally have sex;
c) I haven't accepted your Lord as my personal savior;
d) I don't think Georgie Jr. is playing straight with us;
e) I think Darwin was on the right track.
f) I think that creationism is non-scientific religious belief that doesn't belong in a science classroom;
g) I think that the Ten Commandments have no place in public schools except between the covers of the Bible on the shelf in the library, where it should occupy space right next to the Koran, the Talmud, and the Book of the Hopi;
h) All of the above.
In fact, just stop telling me that I'm going to hell; it sounds a awful lot like judgement, condemnation and persecution. Making someone feel judged, condemned and persecuted is not a good way to make friends with them.

Please do not take my lack of interest in your religion as a condemnation of you personally. It's nothing of the sort. I think that there's a lot of value in Christianity. It's just that I don't believe in the heavenly provenance of the Bible. It's not personal.

And please stop blaming every single thing that is wrong with the world on a lack of Christian faith. It doesn't help or fix anything.

What do I respect about Christianity?

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and unto God what is God's. (see, even Christ advocated seperation of church and state.)
Very well said. I agree.

And a personal note on proselytising -- I hate it. With a passion. The moment you whip out that bible at lunch and try to "teach" me, the moment you knock on my door and want to discuss god with me, the moment you accost me on the street with the "good news," the moment you try to "save" me during a casual conversation -- you have lost. You have lost my interest, my respect, and very possibly my friendship (if we were friends in the first place). If I'm at all interested in what you are selling I will find you (or some other salesperson) and initiate the transaction myself.
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Old 08-07-2005, 08:41 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by u2bonogirl
That was part of the point I tried making earlier. You dont see some of the more subtle things because they arent being broadcasted aloud.
Isnt everybody entitled to their own opinion? Is it more offensive for christians to make it known that they dont agree with gay marriage than it is for gays to make it known that they dont agree with the christian views?
The problem is the christians offended by gay marriage are trying to prevent gays from being married, whereas the gays who disagree with the christian view on that are not trying to stop the christians from doing anything except harrassing gays.

Disagreeing with something is one thing. Actively working to prevent others from doing the thing you disagree with is quite another. That's where it becomes offensive.
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Old 08-07-2005, 08:47 PM   #20
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Re: Re: Civil discussion on Christianity???

Quote:
Originally posted by indra


If I'm at all interested in what you are selling I will find you (or some other salesperson) and initiate the transaction myself.
That's a good point.

If I want a gallon of milk, I'll go to the grocery store.
If I want religion, I'll go to church.
I don't need delivery service.
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Old 08-07-2005, 08:58 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
Disagreeing with something is one thing. Actively working to prevent others from doing the thing you disagree with is quite another. That's where it becomes offensive.
Bingo .

Angela
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Old 08-07-2005, 09:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra


The problem is the christians offended by gay marriage are trying to prevent gays from being married, whereas the gays who disagree with the christian view on that are not trying to stop the christians from doing anything except harrassing gays.
Sometimes, gays publically demonize Christians for simply believing that homosexuality is wrong.
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Old 08-07-2005, 09:36 PM   #23
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I don't know...if someone hadn't finally reached out to me (proselytized) I hate to think of where I would be right now. The way I see it, people like Indra wouldn't embrace christianity regardless of tactic...and if they didn't want to hear about something I care very much about, I doubt we'd be compatable friends anyway. I'm old enough to realize that in this world there will be people who will like me and people who won't. I don't want to hide a huge part of my identity just to try to buddy up to people who wouldn't like the real me anyway...
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Old 08-07-2005, 09:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by popsadie
I don't know...if someone hadn't finally reached out to me (proselytized) I hate to think of where I would be right now. The way I see it, people like Indra wouldn't embrace christianity regardless of tactic...and if they didn't want to hear about something I care very much about, I doubt we'd be compatable friends anyway. I'm old enough to realize that in this world there will be people who will like me and people who won't. I don't want to hide a huge part of my identity just to try to buddy up to people who wouldn't like the real me anyway...
You don't have to hide your identity, just do not try to force your beliefs on me. I have friends who are christians -- some very devout. One woman goes to church every single morning of her life, I have other friends who are nuns (doesn't get much more devout than that). They don't push their belief on me and I don't push what I believe on them. And we do have very different opinions on many many issues in this world. We respect each other enough to accept the other's opinions, even if they differ from out own. But if they chose to try to push me to believe what they believe, they would have made the choice to not be my friends.
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Old 08-07-2005, 09:58 PM   #25
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I can't stand aggressive evangelism. I'm really not bothered that much by somebody introducing me to the concepts of their faith, but when they get a "no, thank you" from me, they need to back the hell off.

I had friends who lived in neighbourhoods where they would constantly have people showing up on their doorstep proselytizing. Even after they'd been told to please stop. Eventually these friends started telling them they were Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever else worked to get them off their backs.

No means no, and religious people need to respect that.
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Old 08-07-2005, 09:59 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by popsadie
I don't know...if someone hadn't finally reached out to me (proselytized) I hate to think of where I would be right now. The way I see it, people like Indra wouldn't embrace christianity regardless of tactic...and if they didn't want to hear about something I care very much about, I doubt we'd be compatable friends anyway. I'm old enough to realize that in this world there will be people who will like me and people who won't. I don't want to hide a huge part of my identity just to try to buddy up to people who wouldn't like the real me anyway...
I have friends and family members who are devout Christians. I hear about their beliefs all the time. That doesn't bother me. If they want to talk, that's okay. I have a sister who is heavily involved in her parish church and most of its activities; I get to here all about that. It's part of her life, and I wouldn't tell her to shut up about it any more than I would tell her to shut up about her job or her friends.

What I have a hard time with is people who try (sometimes obsessively) to convert me, or who just can't help pointing out (sometimes with something that seems ominously to border on glee) that I'm going to hell if I continue to refuse to embrace their beliefs.

They can't accept me as I am. That's annoying.
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Old 08-08-2005, 12:41 AM   #27
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Ditto the above three responses. I'm always interested in hearing people's beliefs about things, regardless of whether or not they agree with me. And religious beliefs are no different-I've had many good discussions with people whom I'm not in agreement with religion-wise, I learn a few things about their religion and some questions I had get cleared up, which is nice.

Like the others have said, show respect for my beliefs, and I promise you, I will respect yours in return. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Just don't try and force/expect everyone to think the way you do, is all.

Besides that, I'd much rather hang out at a church with someone who followed the same religion I did because they were truly interested in the religion, because they really believed in the stuff expressed in there, instead of be around someone who was only there because someone made them come there. Their heart isn't really in it, it's not a sincere worship, so what's the point, what fun and happiness can possibly come from that?

Angela
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:15 AM   #28
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I thought we were finally going to have a thread where we could post about the various types of Christianity being practiced by our members and discuss this w/o the "Christians need to leave me alone bla bla bla". Maybe Fizz can close this and we can start over, since IMO it's hopelessly off-topic.
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:21 AM   #29
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Or maybe we can just bring it back on topic. Ok everyone? Can we return to the original post and start over?
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Old 08-08-2005, 05:26 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I thought we were finally going to have a thread where we could post about the various types of Christianity being practiced by our members and discuss this w/o the "Christians need to leave me alone bla bla bla". Maybe Fizz can close this and we can start over, since IMO it's hopelessly off-topic.
Oh please! Look at the initial post.

This was part of it:

Quote:
For the nonChristians out there, what do Christians need to do to repair the increasingly common view of Christianity.
And for me "leave me alone and don't try to shove your belief onto me" IS a big part of what Christians of any kind can do to change their image as nosy, busybody, pushy, obnoxious people.

I didn't take this just as a for Christians only thread, especially after being specifically asked (as a nonchristian) for my views on how christians can make their image better.
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