City of Philadelphia Adds $199,999 to Boy Scout HQ Rent Due to Gay Ban

[Irvine511]

So if men and women, who have been separated for centuries because of their orientation, are separated in intimacy than so should homosexuals.

i'll only say this once more.

if you and i were at the gym at the same time, and we didn't know each other, and we showered and got changed at the same time, you'd have no idea that i was gay. you'd know i was a man, and i'd know you were a man, but there'd be nothing else that enters the equation.

if you were showering next to a naked woman (evidently) it would be quite a different situation.

how hard is this to understand?

 

[martha]

I feel offended because of her presumption that us straight males "cannot control ourselves."

This is your assumption, not mine. You're the one who said rape was about sex, and you're the one who's freaked out about gay guys checking you out.

Who is more worried about the self-control of men?

 

[BVS]

Who is more worried about the self-control of men?

Exactly...

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

i'll only say this once more.

if you and i were at the gym at the same time, and we didn't know each other, and we showered and got changed at the same time, you'd have no idea that i was gay. you'd know i was a man, and i'd know you were a man, but there'd be nothing else that enters the equation.

if you were showering next to a naked woman (evidently) it would be quite a different situation.

how hard is this to understand?

Likewise.

The undisclosed sexual orientation allows for comfortableness. Because it's undisclosed. If it were (unintentionally) disclosed as in the case of the woman I assure you there would more cautiousness on the part of the person who feels he might be peeped on.

I'm sure a man who is told that a lesbian will shower with him would feel comfortable. But if the lesbian knows he is straight I assure you she wouldn't move as freely as she would otherwise.

Don't take my word for it. Ask people you know. It's logical. You only disagree with me because you don't want to grant the fact that I'm right about something. Ask people you know and then you'll see I'm right.

 

[martha]

So does all this mean that Philly should give a discriminatory group a deal on rent?

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

I think it's a give and take. You can't expect for tolreance to happen over night. Start it off by separating people with sexual orientation and then wait. It'll take a generation for full acceptance to happen. I don't have anything against homosexuals but it's still a bit of a new issue for me and it will never appear to me as natural as my children will most probably view it.

So I say do it slowly but surely. Accept others gradually but don't expect the close minded to open their minds over night.

 

[Irvine511]

Likewise.

The undisclosed sexual orientation allows for comfortableness. Because it's undisclosed. If it were (unintentionally) disclosed as in the case of the woman I assure you there would more cautiousness on the part of the person who feels he might be peeped on.

you've just defeated yourself.

you can't not disclose what gender you are, but sexual orientation isn't an issue in a locker room setting.

nor is it in a scouting situation.

and, likewise, the issue, were there to be one on a case of disclosure, is YOURS, THE STRAIGHT PERSON'S to deal with. you have no right, whatsoever, to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation (this nonsense of 'gay' tents) is no different than white people feeling uncomfortable going to school with black people, sitting in the front of the bus with black people, etc.

it's something you need to get over.



[q]I'm sure a man who is told that a lesbian will shower with him would feel comfortable. But if the lesbian knows he is straight I assure you she wouldn't move as freely as she would otherwise.[/q]

you've precisely proved my point. again.

it's gender/anatomy that's the issue and the basis for segregtion of locker rooms, NOT sexual orientation.

again: how hard is this?

Don't take my word for it. Ask people you know. It's logical. You only disagree with me because you don't want to grant the fact that I'm right about something. Ask people you know and then you'll see I'm right.

this is really pathetic. it's as if you think i don't have any straight friends, didn't swim on a swim team for 15 years with mostly straight people, don't go to a gym with mostly straight people, and don't have mostly straight friends.

so i'll just let this comment speak for itself, and the insecurity it represents.

go get an argument.

 

[Irvine511]

Start it off by separating people with sexual orientation and then wait.

yes, because my viewpoint and rights don't mean shit. i make you uncomfortable! it's ME who's the problem! it's ME who should be removed from the situation until YOU warm up and begin to view me as a person. what matters is not that i'm treated equally by including me, but that other people are comfortable when i'm included!

 

[BVS]

I don't have anything against homosexuals

Well you'll have to admit many of the things you've said in here and in the Harry Potter thread lead many others to believe different.

It's funny how you can't take an author's word for it, but we're suppose to take yours after calling such charcters as 'tainted'.

don't expect the close minded to open their minds over night.

This we agree on.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Well you'll have to admit many of the things you've said in here and in the Harry Potter thread lead many others to believe different.

It's funny how you can't take an author's word for it, but we're suppose to take yours after calling such charcters as 'tainted'.

I said time and time again that I have nothing against homosexuals and for that i believe that it was more other people's responses to my posts than my actual posts that lead you to belive that.

The "tainted" part in that other thread I explain as a poor choice of words in an angry post.

And, as I can't contribute any new ideas to this thread that I haven't already posted, I'm off.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

yes, because my viewpoint and rights don't mean shit. i make you uncomfortable! it's ME who's the problem! it's ME who should be removed from the situation until YOU warm up and begin to view me as a person. what matters is not that i'm treated equally by including me, but that other people are comfortable when i'm included!

And to you, I say, I'm sorry. I didn't make this world and I certainly didn't make people feel uncomfortable with a different person.

But I will say that if you want to mediate and understand you have to see other POV's besides yours and compromise.

 

[BVS]

I said time and time again that I have nothing against homosexuals and for that i believe that it was more other people's responses to my posts than my actual posts that lead you to belive that.

Believe me, it was your posts, not people's responses.

Just because time and time again you say something doesn't mean it's true.

I mean you didn't believe Rowling. How am I suppose to believe you when so many of your posts state otherwise?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

*Reads last few pages*

What...the...?

You can't expect for tolreance to happen over night. Start it off by separating people with sexual orientation and then wait. It'll take a generation for full acceptance to happen.

Erm...how exactly do you expect people to learn tolerance and acceptance if they don't interact with people who are different from them? How in the world is separating people who are of different sexual orientations going to lead to acceptance and tolerance?

Also, you're only going to know somebody's sexual orientation if they tell you about it. You could stand in a room full of guys and not have a clue as to who's straight and who's gay unless they stated it aloud. So trying to "separate" everybody based on their sexual orientation wouldn't work unless you forced everyone to confess that information. Is that what you want to do?

And as for this deal of being uncomfortable around someone, look, if a girl you weren't interested in was constantly leering at you or trying to put some moves on you, you'd tell her to back off, right? Why can't you just do the same should a guy do it to you? If a girl hit on me I'd tell her I'm flattered but I'm sorry, I'm not interested. And I'd bet you anything that the chances are highly likely she'll apologize and leave me alone. You're really making the issue WAY more difficult than it needs to be.

Angela

 

[phillyfan26]

You can't expect for tolreance to happen over night. Start it off by separating people with sexual orientation and then wait.

And you honestly think the best way for tolerance is to ... separate people?

That worked out real well in race relations.

 

[redhotswami]

I think it's a give and take. You can't expect for tolreance to happen over night. Start it off by separating people with sexual orientation and then wait. It'll take a generation for full acceptance to happen.

fuuuuuuuuuck yah!!!!!! segregation
bring it back bitches bring it back!


replace "sexual orientation" with "race" and look how awful that reads.

 

[Irvine511]

And to you, I say, I'm sorry. I didn't make this world and I certainly didn't make people feel uncomfortable with a different person.

But I will say that if you want to mediate and understand you have to see other POV's besides yours and compromise.

it's very clear what you have to do.

if you ever feel uncomfortable in a situation, be it Scouts or showering at the gym because there could be gay people somewhere, then you must remove yourself from the situation.

after all, that's what lots of white people did in the south after the schools were desegregated. they formed private Christian "academies" (memphis went to on) so they could keep their children safe from the black kids.

i suggest you do the same. you won't be able to use the Men's Room or sleep in the same tent as the other Scouts. instead, you'll have your "straights only" locker room and you can go sleep away from the rest of the group in your sleeping bag.

i'm sure that will give you great comfort.

 

[martha]

Start it off by separating people with sexual orientation and then wait. It'll take a generation for full acceptance to happen. I don't have anything against homosexuals but it's still a bit of a new issue for me and it will never appear to me as natural as my children will most probably view it.

Start it off by separating Spanish-speaking people and then wait. It'll take a generation for full acceptance to happen. I don't have anything against Spanish-speaking people but it's still a bit of a new issue for me and it will never appear to me as natural as my children most probably will view it.



Sounds good to me. If I don't have to deal directly with Spanish-speaking people, I'll be a lot less uncomfortable. They can have their own tents, bathrooms, neighborhoods, etc. It's a win-win.

 

[dazzlingamy]

what the hell.

i STILL don't understand this whole 'if i shower with a gay man he will molest me' type of viewing. Are people out of their fucking mind?
Where has this 'gay people are sexual predators' come from? I've never met a gay person who is agressive and starts fondling and molesting every man in sight (while i know there are predators in ALL sexual orientations i don't prescribe to the fact that gays are more dispositioned to it) in fact I think Irvine is being quite polite here, because if I was being slighted the way that his NORMAL NATURAL CANT FUCKING CHANGE IT feelings towards another people was being talked about like this, I would hit the fucking roof.

SEPERATE gay people and straight. WHY? What is ANY resonable reason behind this idea?

Why are people so fearful of homosexual people. Oh they can't get married, or adopt kids, or be a scout leader, or shower near me, or sit near me, or LOOK AT ME etc etc
pathetic.

 

[maycocksean]

A few years ago we went through, I guess you could call it an issue, regarding what to do when we went on our annual school campout with the gay students we had at the time. Some of the straight boys had voiced some concerns about being "bothered" or "touched" by the gay students in their tents. I'm not sure their concerns were entirely unwarranted as these were 8th and 9th grade boys and all them, gay and straight alike, had the maturity levels typical of that age group (Meaning that the straight boys were more liable to blow out of proportion the likelihood of their being "molested" in their tent and the gay boys were more liable to give their tent mates a quick "grab" or whatever just to tease them).

It wasn't really that big a deal though. There were no loud complaints and the gay students were well liked by everyone including those who quietly came to their teacher and said "Can I not be in his tent because I don't want him bothering me. . ." I can't really recall how it all worked out, except that it did work out--(the gays weren't banished to the some kind of 'gay' tent or whatever, there were just guys they could stay with where discomfort wasn't an issue). We all went on the campout and everybody had a good time and that was the end of that.

 

[maycocksean]

I've never really every been worried about stuff like "the gay guy checking me out in the shower" or whatever myself. I would feel entirely comfortable knowing there was a gay man in the locker room, shower, or tent or whatever the case may be.

 

[BVS]

The gay tent would be much cleaner... do you think it would have a discoball?

 

[Irvine511]

A few years ago we went through, I guess you could call it an issue, regarding what to do when we went on our annual school campout with the gay students we had at the time. Some of the straight boys had voiced some concerns about being "bothered" or "touched" by the gay students in their tents. I'm not sure their concerns were entirely unwarranted as these were 8th and 9th grade boys and all them, gay and straight alike, had the maturity levels typical of that age group (Meaning that the straight boys were more liable to blow out of proportion the likelihood of their being "molested" in their tent and the gay boys were more liable to give their tent mates a quick "grab" or whatever just to tease them).

maybe this is generational, but i can't imagine being out in 8th grade.

 

[Diemen]

I think it's a give and take. You can't expect for tolreance to happen over night. Start it off by separating people with sexual orientation and then wait. It'll take a generation for full acceptance to happen. I don't have anything against homosexuals but it's still a bit of a new issue for me and it will never appear to me as natural as my children will most probably view it.

So I say do it slowly but surely. Accept others gradually but don't expect the close minded to open their minds over night.

Are you seriously arguing for segregation?? Seriously?? Take a look through history: can you find any instances where segregation worked well and promoted tolerance and acceptance? Where it didn't infringe (to put it mildly) on the rights of the minority? If you're honest you're going to realize that segregation is not exactly the best way to achieve understanding and tolerance. If anything it inhibits acceptance and allows bigotry to spread.

And how exactly are people going to be more accepting of something if they never have to interact with it?













Seriously??

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

You´re right. Screw segregation. Let´s have co-ed bathrooms. Just one bathroom for both males and females.

I love how for the sake of an argument people here will magically become oblivious to logical human behavior like separating bathrooms to ensure the privacy of opposite sexual genders.

 

[phillyfan26]

Are you serious? Who suggested co-ed bathrooms?

 

[Diemen]

You´re right. Screw segregation. Let´s have co-ed bathrooms. Just one bathroom for both males and females.

I love how for the sake of an argument people here will magically become oblivious to logical human behavior like separating bathrooms to ensure the privacy of opposite sexual genders.

But you're not saying opposite sexual genders. You're saying we should separate by sexual orientation. Which for the most part you have no way of knowing when a guy walks into the bathroom. Unless you're going to argue in favor of some sort of armband that gay men should be forced to wear so you can figure out which ones to be irrationally afraid of.

 

[Greenlight]

You´re right. Screw segregation. Let´s have co-ed bathrooms. Just one bathroom for both males and females.

I love how for the sake of an argument people here will magically become oblivious to logical human behavior like separating bathrooms to ensure the privacy of opposite sexual genders.

I take it you haven't travelled round Europe much then? You should try a Finnish sauna for instance but then again you'd have to change your mindset as there's no sexual atmosphere.

 

[phillyfan26]

I love how for the sake of an argument people here will magically become oblivious to logical human behavior like separating bathrooms to ensure the privacy of opposite sexual genders.

I love how you continue to make it seem like you're absolutely correct on this.

You have two unshakable assumptions here which are making you "magically oblivious:"

1) Because more men are rapists, men in general tend to want more sex and have less control of themselves.

2) Men are justifiably weirded out by gays.

Both assumptions are ridiculous.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

There´s really no point in arguing with people who won´t concede the fact that some people want their privacy. I´d rather not shower in front of someone who is attracted to my gender. And so would many other people. It´s that simple. But in interference you´re a bigot for even suggesting that you want your privacy.

 

[phillyfan26]

All I'm saying is that they shouldn't be banned from something because of your insecurities. If you are really that paranoid that they can't control themselves, then YOU should be the one who finds somewhere else to bathe, or YOU should be the one to find a different scout group. It shouldn't be their fault that you're paranoid.