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Old 10-25-2007, 03:25 PM   #151
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
There´s really no point in arguing with people who won´t concede the fact that some people want their privacy. I´d rather not shower in front of someone who is attracted to my gender. And so would many other people. It´s that simple. But in interference you´re a bigot for even suggesting that you want your privacy.
Like Diemen says, maybe they should all wear armbands so you'd know. It's all about you, so why not?
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:25 PM   #152
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
] I´d rather not shower in front of someone who is attracted to my gender.
That's fine. But how do you know if someone is attracted to your gender? How do you know if the guy next to you is gay or straight? You don't. You may have already showered in front of gay men dozens of times already (assuming you've showered in a locker room, etc). So what you're arguing for (separation) doesn't make sense in this case, because there is no way of separating them unless you force them to identify their sexual orientation. And that's a clear violation of their rights.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:41 PM   #153
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All I'm saying is that they shouldn't be banned from something because of your insecurities. If you are really that paranoid that they can't control themselves, then YOU should be the one who finds somewhere else to bathe, or YOU should be the one to find a different scout group. It shouldn't be their fault that you're paranoid.

If I were to selfishly answer as you have I would say "I´m the normal one because I´m straight. If you want to change things up and add a new sexual orientation then YOU should move out. It´s not my fault that you´re gay."

That line of thinking gets you nowhere. Even if you do manage to convince ME there´s still a vast majority of people out there who do feel uncomfortable with their privacy.
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:49 PM   #154
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy



If I were to selfishly answer as you have I would say "I´m the normal one because I´m straight. If you want to change things up and add a new sexual orientation then YOU should move out. It´s not my fault that you´re gay."

That line of thinking gets you nowhere.
Error #1: homosexuality is not a new sexual orientation.


And as an aside, go back 50 or 60 years:

"I'm the normal one because I'm white. If you want to change things up and sit at the front, then get your own buses. It's not my fault you're black."

But you're right, that line of thinking gets you nowhere. And yet you keep pushing for separation because you shouldn't be uncomfortable. So how exactly would this separation work? How would you separate homosexuals* from heterosexuals?

*Without violating their rights
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Old 10-25-2007, 03:52 PM   #155
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
there´s still a vast majority of people out there who do feel uncomfortable with their privacy.
I would say that actually the majority of people are uncomfortable with their privacy no matter who is next to them, whether they are gay or straight, male or female.

Besides (and you continue to ignore this), how is your privacy in danger if you can't visually tell who is gay anyway? Maybe everyone you've ever showered next to was gay. Maybe they weren't. Unless you knew them personally (and even then maybe not), you don't know. (which brings me back to how exactly you'd enact this separation...)
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:00 PM   #156
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How about this? I´m currently reading "Capote", the biography (great book so far btw) and it tells of how the bigger, stronger boys would "use" (it was more along the lines of "molest") Capote in the night because he was the "lighter" one of the goup. Don´t tell me these things don´t happen in the army, in prisons, all over the place. So as you see, sometimes, you DO know who is gay and sometimes they are taken advantage of in these conditions. Even then, when we all know that there is a possibility of them becoming targets, you see no reason at all for separation?

How would I separate them? I don´t know. But I do think that keeping such close quarters between "opposite" sexual orientations might just be asking for trouble.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:04 PM   #157
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
If I were to selfishly answer as you have I would say "I´m the normal one because I´m straight. If you want to change things up and add a new sexual orientation then YOU should move out. It´s not my fault that you´re gay."

That line of thinking gets you nowhere. Even if you do manage to convince ME there´s still a vast majority of people out there who do feel uncomfortable with their privacy.
How in the hell was my answer selfish?

Privacy is one thing. Segregation and discrimination is another. I don't understand how the fact that a homosexual is nearby in the bathroom is a violation of your privacy. It is segregation to ban them from the bathroom. It's a men's room, not a straight men's room.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:06 PM   #158
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I do not see the actions of bigots, abusers and bullies as justification for separating and/or minimizing one group from the rest of society.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:08 PM   #159
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Originally posted by Diemen
I do not see the actions of bigots as justification for separating and/or minimizing one group from society. Social justice does not stop for bigots.

So, what are we suppossed to do? Just wait for people to "control themselves", expect people to "tolerate" because "that´s the way it should be"? You´re being idealistic.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:10 PM   #160
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Who's not controlling themselves? Why do you assume that every homosexual is going to be checking you out? Why do you think they will be making sexual moves towards you in the bathroom?

Why would people need to tolerate? Maybe they could just go about their business and not worry about it! They certainly have been for the longest time.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:12 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
How about this? I´m currently reading "Capote", the biography (great book so far btw) and it tells of how the bigger, stronger boys would "use" (it was more along the lines of "molest") Capote in the night because he was the "lighter" one of the goup. Don´t tell me these things don´t happen in the army, in prisons, all over the place. So as you see, sometimes, you DO know who is gay and sometimes they are taken advantage of in these conditions. Even then, when we all know that there is a possibility of them becoming targets, you see no reason at all for separation?

How would I separate them? I don´t know. But I do think that keeping such close quarters between "opposite" sexual orientations might just be asking for trouble.

You realize that in the examples you used (men forcing themselves on other men in prison,etc), the perpetrators are usually STRAIGHT. It is an act of power and control, not uncontrollable homosexual lust.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:12 PM   #162
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy



So, what are we suppossed to do? Just wait for people to "control themselves", expect people to "tolerate" because "that´s the way it should be"? You´re being idealistic.
Maybe Martin Luther King should have just given up. I mean, after all, plenty of blacks were getting beaten up and killed over the idea of social equality.

Women should've given up the fight for the vote.
Christians should have given up in the face of Roman persecution.
The American colonies should have given up in the face of British attack.
The Brits should have given up in the face of German attack.

Need I go on? Now I'm not saying all these are equal, but the point is the same. We make no progress when we cower in the face of oppression.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:12 PM   #163
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Originally posted by martha


Start it off by separating Spanish-speaking people and then wait. It'll take a generation for full acceptance to happen. I don't have anything against Spanish-speaking people but it's still a bit of a new issue for me and it will never appear to me as natural as my children most probably will view it.



Sounds good to me. If I don't have to deal directly with Spanish-speaking people, I'll be a lot less uncomfortable. They can have their own tents, bathrooms, neighborhoods, etc. It's a win-win.
It´s different. Spanish speaking people aren´t sexually attracted to english speaking people because of their "spanish speaking" condition.
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:16 PM   #164
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You do realize that someone can be attracted to your gender and still be able to control themselves in your presence, right?

What exactly do you fear in all this? That some man is going to come on to you and you'll feel all icky?
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:17 PM   #165
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy


It´s different. Spanish speaking people aren´t sexually attracted to english speaking people because of their "spanish speaking" condition.
Oh, by the way, it's not a condition, it's a natural part of who they are.

But that's certainly a revealing turn of phrase.
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