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Old 12-13-2006, 10:27 PM   #46
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Originally posted by randhail
Your own example just demonstrated that medical necessity is not a clearcut answer. Therefore, you can't really use that to justify doing away with circumcision especially when there is literature out there saying that it offers benefits.
Oh please. Probably 99% of circumcisions are done on normal penises and normal foreskins. In the case of that 1%, there are isolated cases where a foreskin is deformed or a cause of disease. The actual number of "medically necessary" circumcisions are minimal. It is, in most every circumstance, an elective procedure, and, as this thread has demonstrated, there are those adults who have elected to have it done and are glad to have been circumcised, and then there are those (like my friend) who hate that it was done to them.

How many children with normal, perfectly straight teeth are forced to have braces? If this was the case, I'm sure the orthodontist would probably want to call a social worker and have the parents' sanity examined.

As I've stated before, if adults wish to mutilate themselves, then, by all means, go for it. There's been cases of men having elective castration too. Whatever floats your boat. But when it comes to those under the age of consent, those kinds of medically unnecessary procedures should be banned in every case, with no allowance for "tradition."
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:30 PM   #47
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Originally posted by anitram
Actually that's not exactly true.

It is a complicated issue, but the courts are willing to respect personal autonomy (provided that you can establish the child is making an informed consent). There is a heap of caselaw supporting this outcome. (Just to add, in a lot of these you can argue undue influence by the parents but that has still been seen as a grey area)
I guess I was literally referring to "children." I do understand that there is a gray area regarding "teenagers," who are minors under the law, but are recognized, in some cases, as being old enough to understand whether or not to refuse treatment for a medical condition.

Regardless, "infants" clearly live well outside the realm of teenagers and the ability to make an informed decision.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:31 PM   #48
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Still a bad analogy. A better analogy would be getting an infant ear's pierced.
I like mine better.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:34 PM   #49
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Originally posted by Ormus


Oh please. Probably 99% of circumcisions are done on normal penises and normal foreskins. In the case of that 1%, there are isolated cases where a foreskin is deformed or a cause of disease. The actual number of "medically necessary" circumcisions are minimal. It is, in most every circumstance, an elective procedure, and, as this thread has demonstrated, there are those adults who have elected to have it done and are glad to have been circumcised, and then there are those (like my friend) who hate that it was done to them.

How many children with normal, perfectly straight teeth are forced to have braces? If this was the case, I'm sure the orthodontist would probably want to call a social worker and have the parents' sanity examined.

As I've stated before, if adults wish to mutilate themselves, then, by all means, go for it. There's been cases of men having elective castration too. Whatever floats your boat. But when it comes to those under the age of consent, those kinds of medically unnecessary procedures should be banned in every case, with no allowance for "tradition."
Hands up everyone anti-circumcision because it causes temporary pain to an infant and is medically unnecessary and the child didn't have a say ?

Ok, now hands up everyone who is anti outlawing the medically unnecessary killing of an unborn child (who also doesn't have a say).

hmmm........interesting.....pain for a few minutes, no, but death, yes ?
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:34 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus


As I've stated before, if adults wish to mutilate themselves, then, by all means, go for it. There's been cases of men having elective castration too. Whatever floats your boat. But when it comes to those under the age of consent, those kinds of medically unnecessary procedures should be banned in every case, with no allowance for "tradition."
That's all well and good, but how do you determine what's necessary and what's not? Give me a clear way of deciding. You're very eager to say that circumcision is totally unnessary, but what about the literature stating it can offer preventative benefits? Should that be completely disregarded?
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:35 PM   #51
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Braces have no permanant effect.
Yes they do.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:39 PM   #52
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Yes they do.
On baby teeth? Please explain...
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by toscano


Hands up everyone anti-circumcision because it causes temporary pain to an infant and is medically unnecessary and the child didn't have a say ?

Ok, now hands up everyone who is anti outlawing the medically unnecessary killing of an unborn child (who also doesn't have a say).

hmmm........interesting.....pain for a few minutes, no, but death, yes ?
Can't stick with the discussion at hand so you have to bring up this? Sad.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:41 PM   #54
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


On baby teeth? Please explain...
On teenager's teeth. You really don't know what they do ? Who mentioned putting braces on an infant's teeth ?
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:43 PM   #55
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Can't stick with the discussion at hand so you have to bring up this? Sad.
Like ear piercing, or amputations have anything to do with circumcision. Someone doesn't like to be made to look like a hypocrite, I understand........

If medically unnecessary death is apparently OK in your eyes it'll certainly cast the rest of your "argument" in an appropriate light.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:53 PM   #56
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Originally posted by toscano


On teenager's teeth. You really don't know what they do ? Who mentioned putting braces on an infant's teeth ?
We're speaking about infants who don't have a say.

Now your analogy really doesn't work.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:56 PM   #57
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Originally posted by toscano


Like ear piercing, or amputations have anything to do with circumcision.
You are aware of what analogies are, correct? Ear piercing and circumcision both procedure with no medical purpose that are performed on infants who have no say in what they want. Get it?


Quote:
Originally posted by toscano

Someone doesn't like to be made to look like a hypocrite, I understand........
Not sure what you are talking about. Who's being a hypocrite?
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:57 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


We're speaking about infants who don't have a say.

Now your analogy really doesn't work.
the analogy works fine, my kids didn't have a say in whether they got braces.

you really should try this site

www.rif.org
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:59 PM   #59
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You are aware of what analogies are, correct? Ear piercing and circumcision both procedure with no medical purpose that are performed on infants who have no say in what they want. Get it?

absolutely.

ear piercings, amputations, killing

they're either all appropriate, or none are. pick one.


Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Not sure what you are talking about. Who's being a hypocrite?
sensitive ? You are pro-choice to inflict medically unnecessary death, right ?
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:00 PM   #60
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firstly, i just knew toscano was an alter ...

but i am baffled as to how circumcision would increase seuxal pleasure. it makes no difference for the receptive partner, and you've lost 80% of your nerve endings.

true, you haven't had a lifetime of the head chaffing against your underware, but give it time.

the only advantage i can see is that the performance of oral sex upon a circumsized penis might be preferable to the performer.

sorry, is my mind in the gutter?



(this is what it comes down to for me: there is no need for circumcision, so why do it?)
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