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Old 12-13-2006, 09:38 PM   #31
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That is what I cannot accept from an ethical standpoint. You've taken away their ability to make a choice as to whether they'd want it or not. And once the decision has been made for you, there's really no going back.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:38 PM   #32
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That is what I cannot accept from an ethical standpoint. You've taken away their ability to make a choice as to whether they'd want it or not. And once the decision has been made for you, there's really no going back.
You could say the same thing about any medical procedure done to a newborn or infant regardless of medical necessity. Should all neonatal procedures be done away with since no neonate is able to sign a consent form?
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:39 PM   #33
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You could say the same thing about any medical procedure done to a newborn or infant regardless of medical necessity. Should all neonatal procedures be done away with since no neonate is able to sign a consent form?
Like what? Are you comparing a life saving procedure to circumcision?
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:45 PM   #34
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No, not life saving procedures - any procedure that is not life saving. Separation of conjoined twins, reconstructive work, etc.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:48 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus


And that is your right as an adult. Enjoy.
we do



Quote:
Originally posted by Ormus

That is what I cannot accept from an ethical standpoint.
I don't care if you can accept it or not, they're my kids, I do what I think is best for them based upon the available information to me whether it be through medical sources, personal experiences, etc

Strange as it may seem, you just don't get a say in the decision, if you have your own kids, you decide what's best for them.

Not every decision a parent makes for their kids is best left until they reach voting age.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:49 PM   #36
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Originally posted by randhail
You could say the same thing about any medical procedure done to a newborn or infant regardless of medical necessity. Should all neonatal procedures be done away with since no neonate is able to sign a consent form?
"Regardless of medical necessity." But my point completely hinges on the question of medical necessity and is already established within law.

If a child is diagnosed with cancer, and his parents refuse to treat him, the state will intervene and force the child to be treated.

If a child's parents want to give their child breast implants, the parents would be seen as abusers.

Unnecessary procedures, as a matter of ethics, should be completely forbidden for those who cannot consent (and, for the record, I would include in that category infant ear piercings). While the example regarding infant breast implants is obviously silly, circumcision is just as "medically necessary" as those implants. The only reason that parents who circumcise their children aren't charged with child abuse has everything to do with the bane of human civilization--tradition.

And, as I stated earlier, for those activists looking to stop African FGM, they would probably benefit from studying America's irrational attachment to circumcision, as I think attitudes in both societies are quite similarly tradition stubborn.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:52 PM   #37
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No, not life saving procedures - any procedure that is not life saving. Separation of conjoined twins, reconstructive work, etc.
Still a bad analogy. A better analogy would be getting an infant ear's pierced.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:52 PM   #38
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Originally posted by toscano
Strange as it may seem, you just don't get a say in the decision, if you have your own kids, you decide what's best for them.

Not every decision a parent makes for their kids is best left until they reach voting age.
If your parents had thought it best to amputate your otherwise healthy legs at birth, would you be so supportive of a parent's right to unilaterally mutilate their child?
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:53 PM   #39
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I do what I think is best for them based upon the available information to me
Here's the key phrase.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:57 PM   #40
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Medical necessity constitutes a huge gray area. Who's definition of necessary do you use? What does that include? If a child is born with severe facial deformities, but otherwise completely healthy, are the numerous surgeries that follow truly necessary? If it's truly unnecessary, then I agree that it should not be done, but there really is not clearcut answer to any of it. For every doctor that you find telling you one thing, I could find a doctor that contradicts what yours said.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:00 PM   #41
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If your parents had thought it best to amputate your otherwise healthy legs at birth, would you be so supportive of a parent's right to unilaterally mutilate their child?
Silly.

Better analogy would be braces on teeth. Medically unnecessary, painful, no choice in the matter they got them.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:01 PM   #42
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Silly.

Better analogy would be braces on teeth. Medically unnecessary, painful, no choice in the matter they got them.
Braces have no permanant effect.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:11 PM   #43
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Originally posted by toscano
Better analogy would be braces on teeth. Medically unnecessary, painful, no choice in the matter they got them.
No, a better analogy would be having all of your child's healthy teeth drilled and fitted with crowns. After all, studies say that crowned teeth have fewer cavities.

(And, yes, I'm being facetious with that last sentence; you can't have cavities if your natural teeth aren't exposed, so no "studies" would be needed.)

At least with braces, once you remove the hardware, all your teeth are intact. Once the foreskin is gone, it's forever gone.

I'd also dispute that notion of it being "medically unnecessary," as someone who had teeth that were so bad that I ended up getting $20,000 of "medically necessary" jaw surgery, because the braces weren't enough.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:17 PM   #44
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I'd also dispute that notion of it being "medically unnecessary," as someone who had teeth that were so bad that I ended up getting $20,000 of "medically necessary" jaw surgery, because the braces weren't enough.
Your own example just demonstrated that medical necessity is not a clearcut answer. Therefore, you can't really use that to justify doing away with circumcision especially when there is literature out there saying that it offers benefits.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:19 PM   #45
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"Regardless of medical necessity." But my point completely hinges on the question of medical necessity and is already established within law.

If a child is diagnosed with cancer, and his parents refuse to treat him, the state will intervene and force the child to be treated.
Actually that's not exactly true.

It is a complicated issue, but the courts are willing to respect personal autonomy (provided that you can establish the child is making an informed consent). There is a heap of caselaw supporting this outcome. (Just to add, in a lot of these you can argue undue influence by the parents but that has still been seen as a grey area)
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