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Old 02-02-2006, 10:44 AM   #16
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The two women appeared to have offended tradition if not the law, according to several law enforcement and congressional officials. By custom, the annual address is to be a dignified affair in which the president reports on the state of the nation. Guests in the gallery who wear shirts deemed political in nature have, in past years, been asked to change or cover them up.

Rules dealing mainly with what people can bring and telling them to refrain from reading, writing, smoking, eating, drinking, applauding or taking photographs are outlined on the back of gallery passes given to tourists every day.
I hope we don't forget why we have decorum.
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:18 AM   #17
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Let's hope the Capitol police don't forget, either.
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:33 AM   #18
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i still think there's something deeply terrifying about removing people who are wearing articles of clothing that might offend or upset the president in anyway. a t-shirt is neither a crime nor political speech.

but then again, Bush thinks he's a monarch and has disrupted the balance of powers between the three branches of government to such an extent, that he's probably right.
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:39 AM   #19
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i still think there's something deeply terrifying about removing people who are wearing articles of clothing that might offend or upset the president in anyway. a t-shirt is neither a crime nor political speech.

but then again, Bush thinks he's a monarch and has disrupted the balance of powers between the three branches of government to such an extent, that he's probably right.
I think we can address the issue of proper decorum without the hyperbole regarding Bush. Others have been removed from chambers for similar reasons during prior administrations.


Now, to the base issue: should written messages on T-shirts be permitted in the gallery during televised presidential addresses? I would suggest that once you open the door to such methods, a entirely new dynamic is added to the already politically charged atmosphere - disracting from the core purpose of the event. Instead of just handing out tickets to guests, more attention will be given to who is invited and what they wear.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:03 PM   #20
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I think we can address the issue of proper decorum without the hyperbole regarding Bush. Others have been removed from chambers for similar reasons during prior administrations.



hardly hyperbole. but that's a whole other thread. ignore at your own risk.


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Now, to the base issue: should written messages on T-shirts be permitted in the gallery during televised presidential addresses? I would suggest that once you open the door to such methods, a entirely new dynamic is added to the already politically charged atmosphere - disracting from the core purpose of the event. Instead of just handing out tickets to guests, more attention will be given to who is invited and what they wear.

yes, they should. so long as the message isn't blatantly offensive -- i.e., unfit for TV, and there are laws about this already in place (no "Fuck Bush" shirts, for example).

if Cindy Sheehan, an invited guest, can't wear her t-shirt (which stated a fact; there was nothing incendiary about it), then we should start asking politicians to remove American flags from their lapels, yellow ribbons, or any other sort of symbol that could possibly be construed as a political statement.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:16 PM   #21
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hardly hyperbole. but that's a whole other thread. ignore at your own risk.
I guess if you keep repeating "monarchy" to yourself, you will believe it.

As for the real issue:

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
yes, they should. so long as the message isn't blatantly offensive -- i.e., unfit for TV, and there are laws about this already in place (no "Fuck Bush" shirts, for example).

if Cindy Sheehan, an invited guest, can't wear her t-shirt (which stated a fact; there was nothing incendiary about it), then we should start asking politicians to remove American flags from their lapels, yellow ribbons, or any other sort of symbol that could possibly be construed as a political statement.
How do you want to define the standard of "blatantly offensive"? Who would enforce? Would you be happy with the capital police enforcing the standard?

And how does a lapel pin of an American flag, worn in the US Capital during a presidential address, equate with something "political in nature" that should be regulated?
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:26 PM   #22
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I guess if you keep repeating "monarchy" to yourself, you will believe it.




and i thought the price of liberty was eternal vigilance.

i suppose it's better just to trust the president. he does know best.



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How do you want to define the standard of "blatantly offensive"? Who would enforce? Would you be happy with the capital police enforcing the standard?

well, it's quite simple. there are 7 words you can't say on television. there are body parts you can't show on television.

done and done.


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And how does a lapel pin of an American flag, worn in the US Capital during a presidential address, equate with something "political in nature" that should be regulated?

i'd ask you the same question. you felt that her t-shirt was a breach of decorum. why? because it was political in nature? if so, then American flags and ribbons are also equally political in nature.

it's a t-shirt. it is not political speech. if ANYONE else had been wearing that t-shirt, it would have gone unnoticed.

and then we had our lovely right wing plant, Beverly Young, to diffuse any charges of "bullying." right.

you see, this is another textbook example of how the VRWC works. to insulate themselves against charges of roughing up Ms. Sheehan, they planted Beverly Young who was kicked out for the same issue in order to create an accompanying subtitle to diffuse the headlines Ms. Sheehan would be sure to gather. i noted that when i checked out AOL this morning. the lead headline was about Cindy Sheehan, the smaller font mentioned "also Beverly Young." well done. nice "out" created.

and let's think back to the day immediately after the SOTU. where did we first find out about Beverly Young? Drudge.

well lubricated, the wheels are.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:40 PM   #23
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[q]Capitol Police dropped a charge of unlawful conduct against anti-war activist Cindy Sheehan on Wednesday and apologized for ejecting her and a congressman's wife from President Bush's State of the Union address for wearing T-shirts with war messages.
"The officers made a good faith, but mistaken effort to enforce an old unwritten interpretation of the prohibitions about demonstrating in the Capitol," Capitol Police Chief Terrance Gainer said in a statement late Wednesday.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nat...ck=1&cset=true

[/q]



so in case you're wondering whether or not a law was broken that necessitated her arrest, there wasn't.

Beverly Young was removed, but not arrested.

i assume Ms. Sheehan was arrest on suspicion of sedition? giving comfort to the enemy? un-American thoughts?

no matter what treasonous thoughts might have been lurking in her mind, i'm glad that she was simply removed and arrested, and not given the benefit of the doubt and asked to cover up.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:48 PM   #24
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Originally posted by Irvine511
and i thought the price of liberty was eternal vigilance.
Kind of like Don Quixote


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Originally posted by Irvine511
well, it's quite simple. there are 7 words you can't say on television. there are body parts you can't show on television.

done and done.
I'm not sure it is that simple. First, such lax rules allow just about all forms of communication – the gallery during a SOTU address would become an entirely separate event. For example, do you want T-shirts with pictures of dead fetuses and "Abortion Kills"? There is a time and place for protest, and it is fair to eliminate all forms during a SOTU address for all Administrations.


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Originally posted by Irvine511

i'd ask you the same question. you felt that her t-shirt was a breach of decorum. why? because it was political in nature? if so, then American flags and ribbons are also equally political in nature.

it's a t-shirt. it is not political speech. if ANYONE else had been wearing that t-shirt, it would have gone unnoticed.

and then we had our lovely right wing plant, Beverly Young, to diffuse any charges of "bullying." right.

you see, this is another textbook example of how the VRWC works. to insulate themselves against charges of roughing up Ms. Sheehan, they planted Beverly Young who was kicked out for the same issue in order to create an accompanying subtitle to diffuse the headlines Ms. Sheehan would be sure to gather. i noted that when i checked out AOL this morning. the lead headline was about Cindy Sheehan, the smaller font mentioned "also Beverly Young." well done. nice "out" created.

and let's think back to the day immediately after the SOTU. where did we first find out about Beverly Young? Drudge.

well lubricated, the wheels are.
Is the American flag flying over the Capital Building a political statement? Shall we challenge tie colors (red is too bold – does it mean “red state”??? etc. etc. etc.)

And Sheehan was not just wearing a t-shirt. I am wearing a t-shirt. It is not a political statement. Sheehan went in with the equivalent of a banner printed on a shirt. Violation of the rules of decorum, so goodbye.

If Sheehan attended without the message on her t-shirt – she would have been shown on television multiple times. As you’ve stated earlier, she just doesn’t play the game well. She is no victim.


And if the VRWC (if it exists) is working so well, perhaps they deserve to remain in power.
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Old 02-02-2006, 12:56 PM   #25
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I'm not sure it is that simple. First, such lax rules allow just about all forms of communication – the gallery during a SOTU address would become an entirely separate event. For example, do you want T-shirts with pictures of dead fetuses and "Abortion Kills"? There is a time and place for protest, and it is fair to eliminate all forms during a SOTU address for all Administrations.



i would imagine, going by the rules i've set out, dead fetuses would not be acceptable (gore), but "abortion kills" might be acceptable. it should also be said that most people don't do this, and a breach of decorum should be followed up by suggesting an alternative or offering someone a chance to change or cover up -- in a fancy restaurant, if you don't have a coat, they'll lend you one -- the first impulse should not be to ARREST someone.

the more important issue is how insulated this particular president has been from all forms of protest -- using the Patriot Act to insulated him, especially on the campaign trail in 2004.




Quote:
Is the American flag flying over the Capital Building a political statement? Shall we challenge tie colors (red is too bold – does it mean “red state”??? etc. etc. etc.)

but these are questions you should be asking yourself.

if her t-shirt is a breach of decorum because it contained a political message, than nearly anything can be interpreted to be as such. what are American flags on lapels other than "i'm more american than you and i'm a Republican" statements? what are ribbons other than "i support more troops than you" statements?


[q]Violation of the rules of decorum, so goodbye.[/q]

"goodbye" is much, much different from "you have the right to remain silent."


[q]If Sheehan attended without the message on her t-shirt – she would have been shown on television multiple times. As you’ve stated earlier, she just doesn’t play the game well. She is no victim.[/q]

here, she's a victim. is she wholly innocent? no way. should she have been arrested? no way. would anyone else who wore a similar t-shirt have been arrested? no way.


Quote:
And if the VRWC (if it exists) is working so well, perhaps they deserve to remain in power.


oh, just you wait. i'm presently building the infrastructure of a VLWC media manipulator ... mu-ha-ha-ha-ha
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:00 PM   #26
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i would imagine, going by the rules i've set out, dead fetuses would not be acceptable (gore), but "abortion kills" might be acceptable. it should also be said that most people don't do this, and a breach of decorum should be followed up by suggesting an alternative or offering someone a chance to change or cover up -- in a fancy restaurant, if you don't have a coat, they'll lend you one -- the first impulse should not be to ARREST someone.

the more important issue is how insulated this particular president has been from all forms of protest -- using the Patriot Act to insulated him, especially on the campaign trail in 2004.

If Sheehan was removed from the gallery and asked to change her shirt, would we be having this discussion?

Has this whole incident come down to an over-zelous capital police officer?
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:04 PM   #27
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If Sheehan was removed from the gallery and asked to change her shirt, would we be having this discussion?

Has this whole incident come down to an over-zelous capital police officer?


probably not.

though i wouldn't be so quick as to point out an "over-zealous" officer as the problem. it was known what Cindy was up to, and a response was waiting for her the minute she entered Congress -- hence, the arrest and the planting of Beverly Young.
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:15 PM   #28
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though i wouldn't be so quick as to point out an "over-zealous" officer as the problem. it was known what Cindy was up to, and a response was waiting for her the minute she entered Congress -- hence, the arrest and the planting of Beverly Young.
That darn VRWC.....
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Old 02-02-2006, 01:52 PM   #29
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That darn VRWC.....


i told you they were good.
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Old 02-07-2006, 05:05 PM   #30
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