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Old 01-26-2004, 07:25 PM   #16
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lol, ok, but I can guarantee, a traditional church will NEVER be hard to find around here! By the way, my screen name is long and I know a paint to type, so you can call me by my name, Lies.
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Old 01-26-2004, 07:30 PM   #17
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I just copy and paste, but thank you Lies.
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Old 01-26-2004, 07:57 PM   #18
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hi

This is my first time writing on interference. In fact, I just registered today! Anyway, hey there!

Here's my take on the whole thing. My dad is a pastor in the Christian Reformed Church. I've grown up in a more traditional church, a blended(contemporary/traditional) church, and more recently, a very contemporary church. What I have come to realize is each of these churches are potentially needed.

Many of these contemporary churches reach out to people who don't know the Lord. And many of these poeple accept Him because of churches like these.

However, for some of us, we need some more substance. Like my dad said, "You don't need the ABC's of theology, you need the XYZ's." For me, my experience with Power Point has been a bad one so far. Too much of a crutch for the bumbling pastor. But for some, maybe it's great. To each his or her own. I believe Bono said something to this effect recently in Africa, "If we're all loving the same God, what's the problem."
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Old 01-26-2004, 08:13 PM   #19
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Is this *the* Phil?!?

Hi and welcome
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Old 01-26-2004, 08:31 PM   #20
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BTW, my take is that we are all more comfortable with what we grew up with maybe? Although I guess that's not true for me - my dad took us to traditional services and I really got tired of the same thing week after week, repeating the same lines, stand up, sit down, fight fight fight! (ok, so not that last part ) It is 'comfortable' to some people, but I didn't get much out of it. I go to a very contemporary church, we draw huge crowds of the college kids because "this kind of church isn't boring!" Maybe you all would think it's sugar-coated, but I still learn things about the Bible, and I've been in church my whole life. Never grasped the story of Hosea and Gomer until a few months ago, for example.

I really enjoy the more contemporary worship, although hymns are ok too and we throw those in occasionally. We use PP and media things alot as well, I don't think they are a hindrance - it's easier to sing the songs (and I can be more expressive) if I don't have to be holding a hymnal, I can raise my head and feel as if I'm singing to the face of God instead of bowing my head in a book.

This to me, is one of the few instances where it's ok to say, to each his own.
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Old 01-26-2004, 08:43 PM   #21
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Haha, it's Phil.


Anyway,
Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I prefer my minister to be very well-spoken and scholarly, to give new insight and new meaning or interpretations rather than preach the same verses and main points of our faith over and over.
I agree with this - I've been to so-called "contemporary" churches, and it really felt like "here's a song and dance routine to distract you while we try to throw some religion at you as well." Not that all contemporary churches are like that, of course, but that's been my experience. At my home church it seems like there's more of an assumed level of theological knowledge, and the sermons are structured more around furthering the spiritual development of the members than gaining new members and conversion, as more contemporary churches have been in my experience.

Then again, of course I agree with Lies, my family goes to one of the most traditional churches in the city, second only to hers.



And nbcrusader, I love the hymn joke.
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Old 01-26-2004, 08:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave
This to me, is one of the few instances where it's ok to say, to each his own.
Definitely.
And it's probably my personal experience with some more contemporary churches in the area that have turned me off to them in general.
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Old 01-26-2004, 09:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonosloveslave
I go to a very contemporary church, we draw huge crowds of the college kids because "this kind of church isn't boring!"
I see this too, but then I wonder, where do we draw the line between what we want and what's good for us? Sometimes my traditional church is REALLY boring, but I've grown up there, and church is more than just a sermon, it's a community, maybe next week's sermon will be more interesting.

This also brings in the arguements against mega-churches. My mom's complaint with many of the contemporary mega-churches is that their congregation seems to always be in flux. People go there when they're in transition and not sure yet what they want, and of course they draw lots of college students, but these are only temporary. I wonder how many of these popular mega-churches have members who've gone there for over 60 years. I think it's easy to go to a place like that and actually hide behind the church's size and use it as an excuse not to become part of a close community. It takes away a lot of Christian responsibility.

But, yeah, I completely agree with "to each his own" in this case, but I still like this discussion b/c I've only ever been a member of one church, so I don't have any varied experience.
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Old 01-27-2004, 12:19 AM   #24
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Strong Bad...hahaha.

Anyway. That's one of the things that is bothering me about my church...it's not really getting big as far as numbers, but it's trying to, and no one knows anybody anymore. Everything's becoming impersonal. I don't know where the line is drawn, really. For example, our recent newsletter had a bit about how certain classes are going to be offered, and how if you want a leadership position (teaching, etc), you need to take those classes. Basic about-our-church and discipleship fare, nothing outrageous, and I've heard of them at other churches before.

However...it just seems weird. I've grown up in this church and it used to be that everybody knew everybody - heck, everybody was related, if not by blood, by marriage. (That sounds far more primitive than it truly is). I understand the reasoning to a point - you can't just let anyone waltz in the door and teach - but I wonder how this is going to be implemented. What of the people that have always been teachers? What about the people who have been at the church forever? It seems...impersonal, mostly.

It's just strange, watching this take place. And sad, somehow.

Also, as a college kid...I don't like being considered that...easily entertained. I don't live in fear of boredom and it just seems like a stereotype. No one's fault, just annoying. Not all college-age people are looking only for entertainment. I think that mentality affects all age groups, and equally doesn't affect all age groups.
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Old 01-27-2004, 01:01 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by saint cheney
Also, as a college kid...I don't like being considered that...easily entertained. I don't live in fear of boredom and it just seems like a stereotype.
I'm with you on that. (I'm 19, college sophomore, by the way).
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Old 01-27-2004, 03:44 PM   #26
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Yeah, this is THE Phil.

Lies, I agree with you on the points of mega-churches. bonosloveslave, I also want you to know my home church(where my dad preaches at) is very contemporary and I feel right at home there too.

One thing I will say about these growing or mega-churches is many of them are trying to create opportunities for people to get to know one another. Granted, churches w/ over 4,000 people are never going to get everyone to know everyone. But there is a church here in Grand Rapids near that size that works at creating opportunities for smaller "church families" to be formed by the use of small groups. More and more churches are using these to create those close relationships lost in larger churches.

I guess that brings up another topic, what do you think of this small group idea?
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Old 01-27-2004, 03:57 PM   #27
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If the church you go to is so big that you don't know and trust your minister, your church is too big. That's where I draw the line. The minister should know the name of each member of the church, as long as the members put forth effort into introducing themselves and keeping in touch with the minister, but if they're not doing that, then that's another problem... You don't have to know everyone in the congregation, but I think in order to really trust and respect the minister, you have to know each other to some extent. And I'm guessing churches with 4000+ members can't claim to "know" their minister.
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Old 01-30-2004, 02:55 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
If the church you go to is so big that you don't know and trust your minister, your church is too big. That's where I draw the line. The minister should know the name of each member of the church, as long as the members put forth effort into introducing themselves and keeping in touch with the minister, but if they're not doing that, then that's another problem... You don't have to know everyone in the congregation, but I think in order to really trust and respect the minister, you have to know each other to some extent. And I'm guessing churches with 4000+ members can't claim to "know" their minister.
I agree with you here to a point. Our church has over 4000 members on paper. At least half are members because they want the connection to the church when their kids go to preschool or get married (members have a priority over non-members).

With weekly attendance at about 2000, it doesn't seem like a mega church. I too get lost at the mega churches (Saddleback, the Willow Creek of the west, is about 25 minutes away). As a church grows, it takes a lot more effort to reach out to all congregants. Having a pastoral staff connect with the congregation is always an issue. Last year, I challenged a couple of pastors with the question "If someone left the church, would you even know?"

I am surprised how many people our senior pastor knows at the church (actually, I was surprised he knew me - though we will be working together now on session and a committee).
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Old 02-01-2004, 01:18 AM   #29
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The Church I used to go to (and still go to occasionally) used overhead projectors for lyrics only. It was a necessity because it was a Catholic church for a specific ethnic group and it was simply not feasible to keep re-ordering non-English hymnals from overseas constantly.

It never bothered me.
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Old 02-01-2004, 02:18 AM   #30
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I just hate the feeling that I'm watching another movie, or class lecture presentation. Also, I need the music to sing the song, and I've never seen the notes projected at any of the churches I've been to.

I just like the idea of a hymnal. I like how it's organized, and in the back you can look things up by verse, composer, name, catagory, etc. A lot of times while were singing a hymn, I'm checking in the back to see if that composer has any other hymns, or if there are other hymns to that tune, etc. The hymnal also contains the creeds, the catechism, and the sacraments. You can take a hymnal home and have one of your own. It's hard to have all of this with see-through overhead sheets. I like to keep a Bible, a Heidelburg Catechism, and a Psalter Hymnal because I think those contain all of the songs, creeds, liturgies, scripture, etc of my particular denomination.

I can understand why it would be necessary to use a projector when the correct hymnal is not available though.
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