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Old 11-30-2004, 01:43 PM   #76
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Originally posted by Irvine511



there's also a reason why we have Xmas. that's where that term comes from, and that's why in the business world, people will refer to the "Xmas holidays" or simply "the holidays."

and, yes, people do celebrate religious holidays in secular manners because these things are social and cultural as well as religious. i was born, baptized and confirmed Catholic, but i've since grown apart from the Church. or, rather, the Church has pushed itself away from me. i celebrate, happily, Christmas and Easter, and i don't give much thought to Christ. trust me, i know where these holidays come from, but the religous aspect is far less important than spending time with my family and taking a small break at the end of the year.
Personally I think we should adopt the system used by many such multi-cultural nations like Malaysia. Celebrate ALL the holidays. They get all the Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Buddhist holy days off. There's no sanitization of any of them, but everyone can respect the other's because everyone gets "their" holiday.

I never understood a Jewish guy I used to work with who'd make a point of working Christmas Day, I'd gladly have taken off Hanukkah if we'd gotten it.
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Old 11-30-2004, 01:43 PM   #77
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I understand the idea behind using the X, but honestly that offends me

I'm not trying to push my personal beliefs on anyone, but it's tough to see PC going overboard and not be offended in some way by that either.
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Old 11-30-2004, 02:39 PM   #78
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Originally posted by Irvine511



we're not talking about the world, we're talking about the USA. and, yes, for a country that was founded upon religous freedom, the right to worship or not worship as one pleases, it is important that we make room for those who are different from us, just as room was once made for our ancesters (or parents, or whoever) who immigrated to this country once upon a time.

this is what makes our country special. we change and adapt. this land is your land, this land is my land. there will come a day when it is not a predominantly judeo-christian country. there will come a time when english is not the most widely spoken language. and that gets at precisely what makes American culture so dynamic. (indeed, in the 19th century there was a movement to make German the official language due to the huge amount of German immigrants especially in the midwest ... we speak English as custom, but not because it's an official language).
So let me see if I understand you. The climax of the American ideal is the inclusion of all. Thus, anything produced by the majority/state that might possibly exclude, offend, or otherwise marginalize an individual must be condemned. Agree?
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Old 11-30-2004, 02:57 PM   #79
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First off, X-mas is a legitimate way to abbreviate Christmas. The X is derived from the Greek alphabet which is 'Chi" which is the first letter of Christ name in the Greek alphabet. In the English language many considet the 'X' to be a logogram that stands for a cross.

Now that we got that out of the way...

"Christmas" the word and the holiday have nothing to do with the Bible. There is not a specific date given in the Bible, the word Christmas, doesn't exist, and everyway we celebrate it has no Biblical roots. Puritans even banned it for several years because it was a "pagean" holiday.

But I think both sides are confusing the point. No one should sanitize their holiday. No one. You celebrate it the way you want to celebrate and no one should stop you. Just not in public buildings or schools, why is this so hard for some of you. These places are not Christian places of worship. If you want your cards, nativity sets, or your presents fine do it your own home or church. None of these mean a thing anyways. Even nativity sets or extremely historically non-representative. They're all commerce.

But if you want them they're yours, just don't force them into the schools or public buildings. Why is everyone so hellbent on forcing your holiday onto people of other beleifs?
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:28 PM   #80
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Originally posted by stammer476


So let me see if I understand you. The climax of the American ideal is the inclusion of all. Thus, anything produced by the majority/state that might possibly exclude, offend, or otherwise marginalize an individual must be condemned. Agree?

oh dear. your rehetorical Jedi mind tricks won't work on me.

the climax of the American ideal is the inclusion of all so long as one's rights don't deny the rights of others. a good example is gay marriage. homosexuals should have the right to marry because they pay taxes, are denied benefits on the basis of something that they cannot change and this thing -- homosexuality -- harms no one and is not a crime. this is the libertarian position, and is neither liberal nor conservative.

back to Christmas carols. there is a reason why we can have a Christmas tree at the white house but not a nativity scene. there's a world of difference between the two, even if they both come from the same source. our culture is sophistocated enough to embrace one aspect of Christmas in the public sphere -- the winter carnival i've mentioned -- while allowing the religious aspect of the holiday to remain outside the public (i.e., publicly funded, federal, schools and post offices) realm. individuals can do whatever they want, but the state necessarily stays out of the endorsement of Christ (or Vishnu, or Shiva, or Buddah, or Zeus). yes, you should be free to worship zeus. but i don't want pictures exalting zeus hung up in my local post office.

i'm still baffled as to what the argument is here.
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:30 PM   #81
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[i]

But I think both sides are confusing the point. No one should sanitize their holiday. No one. You celebrate it the way you want to celebrate and no one should stop you. Just not in public buildings or schools, why is this so hard for some of you. These places are not Christian places of worship. If you want your cards, nativity sets, or your presents fine do it your own home or church. None of these mean a thing anyways. Even nativity sets or extremely historically non-representative. They're all commerce.
[/B]



i've been saying this over and over and over all day. i'm flummoxed as to what's so difficult about this.
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:31 PM   #82
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I disagree that Christmas should be secularized. Sorry, that's ridiculous. If you want to have a secular holiday, celebrate the New Year, as we did in Communist states where religion was expressly forbidden. If you want to call that Winter Carnival, that's fine, but to impose it on Christmas is stepping way over the line, IMO. We are not trying to secularize Hanukkah or Ramadan, so why Christmas? While it has become commercialized over the years, it is still a religious holiday within Christianity and most certainly within the Church, and it should stay as such. To call it Winter Carnival is akin to referring to Diwali as "Lights R Us".

In a public school, I would not make children sing about the Messiah coming, because I think it's inappropriate and furthermore, unnecessary in schools. Children have been schooled all over the world in a non (and even anti) religious setting and frankly, many of them got a better quality education than we did. I hardly think they're hurting for not having sung Away in a Manger.

Bottom line - religion out of public institutions in a secular state, but secularists should also not try to pervert the meanings and celebrations of important religious dates.
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:35 PM   #83
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American culture, not the public schools, have expanded the meaning of Christmas. i understand why some Christians are bothered by this, i really do. i'm not calling it "Winter Carnival" i'm likening it to something of a winter carnival. that is how it is enjoyed and celebrated by many people, and this is why we can sing songs about Frosty in school, but not about saviors and mangers.

if Christians wish to 100% reclaim Christmas and focus it entirely on the birth of Christ, they're perfectly welcome to try. good luck. Madison Avenue will have lots to say about that. and we can then look forward to *no* christmas music or decorations in schools. we can chop down our christmas trees, throw away our wreaths, stop eating candy canes, and stop giving our children presents. we'll go to midnight mass and have the day off.

fine. but then i'm really moving to canada.
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:40 PM   #84
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Originally posted by Irvine511
oh dear. your rehetorical Jedi mind tricks won't work on me.
No Jedi mind tricks here. .

I just wanted you to clarify.
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Old 11-30-2004, 03:58 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
American culture, not the public schools, have expanded the meaning of Christmas.
Okay, but just because people do it/have done it doesn't mean it's right. American culture has "expanded" the meaning of a lot of things....for the worse.

There's a difference between being open minded/inclusive and changing one's religious beliefs. Like anitram said, there are tons of other religious holidays/events that we'd find laughable if someone even suggested secularizing. Should I change everything I believe in based on what the majority THINKS is right? My religious beliefs discourage me from smoking and drinking. Should I screw it b/c "American culture" finds it acceptable to smoke and drink?

The public schools should just forget about it if they can't find a way to include a variety of Christmas-time celebrations without imposing secular values on them.
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Old 11-30-2004, 04:58 PM   #86
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My wife's choir sings the Hallelujah Chorus by Handel. A very difficult piece of music for high schoolers, and extremely rewarding when they all bring it together.

Do you guys agree that we should ban the singing of classical music as it relates to Christmas as well?
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Old 11-30-2004, 04:59 PM   #87
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Hello! Christmas Music not Theology and Bible-thumping!

OMG! This file is supposed to be about "Christmas (a.k.a. "Xmas") M-U-S-I-C" such as Bono's re-make of my friend DARLENE LOVE's "Christmas, Baby Please Come Home"! So... Deck the halls with balls of holly! Tra-la-la-la-la! La-la! La-la!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Favorite Christmas album: "Phil Spector's Various Artists: A Christmas Gift To U" featuring RONNIE SPECTOR & THE RONETTES, DARLENE LOVE, THE CRYSTALS and BOB B. SOXX & THE BLUE JEANS. It remains the #1 selling rock 'n' roll 'n' soul Xmas album of all time! No wonder BONO lifted a song from it -- with Miss LOVE's blessings as she sang on it as per request of BONO!


CHRISTMAS MUSIC NEWZFLASH: Ironically, someone else at Interference actually started a file just on the song I mentioned. "Christmas, Baby Please Come Home"! Check it out at "Feedback - Music on the Intenet".
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Old 11-30-2004, 05:11 PM   #88
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Well, I am trying to get back to the original question.

Classical music in general. Take it out of the schools?

VHI save the music my ass.
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Old 11-30-2004, 05:30 PM   #89
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
But I think both sides are confusing the point. No one should sanitize their holiday. No one. You celebrate it the way you want to celebrate and no one should stop you. Just not in public buildings or schools, why is this so hard for some of you.
Because singing a traditional Christmas carol is NOT an act of worship. Why is this so hard to understand?
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Old 11-30-2004, 05:43 PM   #90
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Because singing a traditional Christmas carol is NOT an act of worship. Why is this so hard to understand?
I know 1000s of churches across the nation that would disagree with you.
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