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Old 12-02-2004, 09:15 AM   #151
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Honestly sometimes during the moment of silence, I used to think about the boys in school that I liked

hmmmmmmm ... me too.

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Old 12-02-2004, 09:26 AM   #152
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God is different from Jesus.

God is highly universal; Jesus is the heart of Christianity.

Separation of Church and State is why you don't see "Praise Jesus" on our dollar bills.
The Ten Commandments were from God, Jesus was the son of God, and God is in thepledge of allegiance. All issues which the anti-Religion-any-public-place lobby has latched onto.

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however, contingent upon that, since we are all created equal by God -- meaning Jews, Muslims, Chrstians, and Hindus -- we cannot force our specific interpretations and beliefs about God upon others. we universally acknoweldge his existence as a nation,
No, we don't. That's why there are anti-Ten-commandment movements, that's why lawsuits have been filed to try and outlaw the saying of the pledge of allegiance. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy since i don't see any movement out there destroying their dollar bills in disgust, or filing lawsuits saying we should be changing the layotu of our currency, I guess the strong feelings these people supposedly have don't quite extend to their pocketbooks.
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Old 12-02-2004, 09:32 AM   #153
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The Ten Commandments were from God, Jesus was the son of God, and God is in thepledge of allegiance. All issues which the anti-Religion-any-public-place lobby has latched onto.



No, we don't. That's why there are anti-Ten-commandment movements, that's why lawsuits have been filed to try and outlaw the saying of the pledge of allegiance. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy since i don't see any movement out there destroying their dollar bills in disgust, or filing lawsuits saying we should be changing the layotu of our currency, I guess the strong feelings these people supposedly have don't quite extend to their pocketbooks.
look at your first statement -- *only* Christians believe Jesus was the son of God. but all faiths believe in God. God was also put in the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s in order to separate us from the "godless" communists. that phrase is a relic of the cold war. most people don't object much to the word God, but they do object to your extentions of what the word "God" entails, which is Jesus. we go from spirituality into a specific religion. that's where a line is drawn.

the 10 commandments do come from a specific Judeo-Christian notion of God. it is impossible to discount their historical importance, but we don't legislate based upon their specific wording.

and if we removed "in god we trust" from our dollar bills it's not like they'd become worthless, they'd just look ever so slightly different.

i don't see your point at all there.

besides, our notes of legal tender are *ugly*. anyone rememer Dutch money pre-Euro? very pretty.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:06 AM   #154
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look at your first statement -- *only* Christians believe Jesus was the son of God. but all faiths believe in God.

The God of Abraham is the God of Jewish, Muslim and Christian faiths. He is NOT the God of Shinto, Buddha or Hindu.

The fact that Christians believe in God, does NOT mean all Americans believe in God, yet, there he is, in our constitution , in our Government, in our currency, etc.


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God was also put in the pledge of allegiance in the 1950s in order to separate us from the "godless" communists. that phrase is a relic of the cold war. most people don't object much to the word God,
So why are lawsuits being filed to remove the pledge of allegiance from public schools under the pretext of separation of church and State ?


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but they do object to your extentions of what the word "God" entails, which is Jesus.
So, they're objecting to an imlpicit extension ?




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Originally posted by Irvine511

the 10 commandments do come from a specific Judeo-Christian notion of God. it is impossible to discount their historical importance, but we don't legislate based upon their specific wording.

No, we don't. But it's not about legislating is it ?

Let's face it, the God of the founding fathers was the Judeo-christian notion of God, and if you're going to extrapolate that people's objections are based upon the fact that their interpretation MIGHT be the Jedo-christian God, than you have to accept that the intent of the founding fathers was NOT an ephemorous God to all people's regardless of their denomination, but it was the God who is Father of Jesus. It wasn't the God of the Incas or Mayas, it wasn't Ra or Buddha....



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Originally posted by Irvine511

besides, our notes of legal tender are *ugly*.
Not to mention impractical, same size and colour for all bills.

I'm surprised someone hasn't invoked the ADA to get them changed for blind people.
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Old 12-02-2004, 10:55 AM   #155
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you're missing the forest for the trees.

nowhere does Jesus come into the American constitution, pledge of allegiance, etc. yes, the word "God" does, and it does have it's root in the Judeo-Christian God, but it doesn't seem to be too exclusive -- "all men are endowed by their creator." even the word "Creator" is vastly inclusive. according to your logic, since it doesn't say women, and these were all men, then the delcaration of independence only applies to men.

the pledge: lawsuits are being filed because some people object. they're free to. they can take it to court. it will be debated there. it wasn't there before the mid-1950s, i don't know why we needed it then.

the extention: you, yourself, made the extention: "The Ten Commandments were from God, Jesus was the son of God, and God is in thepledge of allegiance." it's this extention that with God comes Jesus that people object to, mostly.
gosh, a little tense, aren't we?

i don't think there's much to "face." our national notions of God have changed and grown, what's so threatening about that? our founding fathers owned slaves, but we don't hold that up as immutable tenets of national identity. why should we retain the essential importance of God to the creation of the USA -- that *all* people, rich and poor, peasant and surf -- come from the same place. therefore, they are all equal. that's why it's inscribe in our constitution and money.
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:05 PM   #156
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Originally posted by Irvine511
you're missing the forest for the trees.
And you are missing the point entirely, but we can agree to disagree, at least I can anyway.

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Originally posted by Irvine511

nowhere does Jesus come into the American constitution, pledge of allegiance, etc.

Not claiming it did.

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Originally posted by Irvine511

yes, the word "God" does, and it does have it's root in the Judeo-Christian God, but it doesn't seem to be too exclusive -- "all men are endowed by their creator." even the word "Creator" is vastly inclusive.

Context be damned !

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Originally posted by Irvine511

according to your logic, since it doesn't say women, and these were all men, then the delcaration of independence only applies to men.

Context be damned yet again!


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Originally posted by Irvine511


the extention: you, yourself, made the extention: "The Ten Commandments were from God, Jesus was the son of God, and God is in thepledge of allegiance." it's this extention that with God comes Jesus that people object to, mostly.
Hardly - The objections we've been seeing filed, are mostly related to the use of the word "God", not "Jesus".

If the "Our Father" you wouldn't be able to walk the streets for lawsuit papers, but there's no mention of Jesu, implicitly or explicitly.

But still, don't take the money away, it's OK to have "God" on that because, well, because we want the money !
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:14 PM   #157
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your money analogy makes no sense whatsoever.

you seem to think that people challenge the inclusion of the word "God" to everything *but* money because then we'd have to throw all our money away. uh, they couldn't just print new notes w/out "in god we trust."

the rest of your post is unrespondable.
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:52 PM   #158
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Oh man, I'm liberal for starters. I also believe tact is something we should all strive for. But i've had it up to here with PCness. Some rich white american men conjured up this PC idea to push our true racist and prejudice beliefs under the rug. Christmas is christmas for f$ck's suck. We should celebrate it thusly. If you don't, then don't. In europe, i saw christmas decorations all over the place, yet the vast secular society members don't complain. It's a celebration and a holiday.
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Old 12-02-2004, 12:54 PM   #159
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people here need to watch the south park episode in which a jewish mom takes all the chrismas out of the christmas school production
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Old 12-02-2004, 01:30 PM   #160
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Originally posted by Irvine511
your money analogy makes no sense whatsoever.

you seem to think that people challenge the inclusion of the word "God" to everything *but* money because then we'd have to throw all our money away. uh, they couldn't just print new notes w/out "in god we trust."

the rest of your post is unrespondable.
Thanks for playing ! Your comments have been appropriately noted.
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Old 12-02-2004, 01:34 PM   #161
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wow.

well, what can you do?



okay, i'm back out of this thread. this time i really do mean it.

i do.

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Old 12-02-2004, 02:02 PM   #162
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Please tell me this is a joke. The early Christians had to write the fish in the sand for fear that they would be killed. Now THAT statement is truly offensive. Instrumental music is not.
How is it offensive? All I'm saying is it's very easy to be Christian in this country, almost fashionable, some people wear the fish, or wear the cross yet have nothing to show for it inside. It's so easy that instead of pushing for truly Christian movements like saving the poor, the sick, and elderly they whine about homosexuals getting married or that their child can't sing a song in school. In this country we say we have freedom of religion yet it's still very difficult to be Muslim in this country, trust me, I have many friends who are and they tell me how hard it is all the time. Yet they have some of the strongest faiths I know.

All I was saying is that if Christianity hadn't turned into such a commercialized religion then maybe we'd go back to fighting the true fight and not whining about this. At the end of the day this means nothing. It's how you celebrate it in your heart and in your home. School is a place to learn reading writing and arithmetic. Do you really think God is going to look back and say well you know what you ignored your brothers in Africa that were dying left and right, you ignored the homeless under the bridge next to your house, and you didn't care if the elderly couldn't afford their medication, but you know what that's OK because you put up a big fight in getting your child be able to sing Christmas carols in school and you made sure those homosexuals couldn't marry. Good for you.
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Old 12-02-2004, 02:08 PM   #163
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Do you really think God is going to look back and say well you know what you ignored your brothers in Africa that were dying left and right, you ignored the homeless under the bridge next to your house, and you didn't care if the elderly couldn't afford their medication, but you know what that's OK because you put up a big fight in getting your child be able to sing Christmas carols in school and you made sure those homosexuals couldn't marry. Good for you.


goooooooooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaal!

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Old 12-02-2004, 02:12 PM   #164
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All I'm saying is it's very easy to be Christian in this country, almost fashionable, some people wear the fish, or wear the cross yet have nothing to show for it inside. It's so easy that instead of pushing for truly Christian movements like saving the poor, the sick, and elderly they whine about homosexuals getting married or that their child can't sing a song in school. In this country we say we have freedom of religion yet it's still very difficult to be Muslim in this country, trust me, I have many friends who are and they tell me how hard it is all the time. Yet they have some of the strongest faiths I know.

All I was saying is that if Christianity hadn't turned into such a commercialized religion then maybe we'd go back to fighting the true fight and not whining about this. At the end of the day this means nothing. It's how you celebrate it in your heart and in your home. School is a place to learn reading writing and arithmetic. Do you really think God is going to look back and say well you know what you ignored your brothers in Africa that were dying left and right, you ignored the homeless under the bridge next to your house, and you didn't care if the elderly couldn't afford their medication, but you know what that's OK because you put up a big fight in getting your child be able to sing Christmas carols in school and you made sure those homosexuals couldn't marry. Good for you.


Brilliant, BVS. I need to get you in front of my church with a microphone. I couldn't agree with you more.

And for the record, I did misunderstand you. I took the "let's go back to drawing" statement as saying that the "good old days" were back when Christians were being fed to the lions. My fault.

But this is such a difficult issue. On the one hand, Christianity is about so much more than singing carols. It's about providing hope, peace, and love to those around us, living in the example and spirit of Christ. But at the same time, are Christians supposed to do nothing when the forces of Political Correctedness are becoming so extreme that they want to disallow INSTRUMENTAL music that has a Christian inspiration? Where does this line of thought end?
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Old 12-02-2004, 02:30 PM   #165
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Brilliant, BVS. I need to get you in front of my church with a microphone. I couldn't agree with you more.

And for the record, I did misunderstand you. I took the "let's go back to drawing" statement as saying that the "good old days" were back when Christians were being fed to the lions. My fault.

But this is such a difficult issue. On the one hand, Christianity is about so much more than singing carols. It's about providing hope, peace, and love to those around us, living in the example and spirit of Christ. But at the same time, are Christians supposed to do nothing when the forces of Political Correctedness are becoming so extreme that they want to disallow INSTRUMENTAL music that has a Christian inspiration? Where does this line of thought end?
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I understand your concern for where the lines are drawn. I do. But this is the way I look at it. When I was living in the dorms we could pretty much do anything to our rooms or in our rooms(allowed by law) so we had some guys who had the black lights and neon posters, we had the guys with sports memrobillia, we had the guys that pretty much just had dirty clothes and pizza boxes adorning them, but then we had common rooms and these common rooms were places we could gather, study, talk and sometimes it was about politics or religion. But none of us had the power to decorate the room, use it for meetings that excluded anyone, and it's decor was usually just the university stuff i.e. seals, colors, logos, etc. This was the common ground everyone shared. Some of us were Jewish, Christian, athiest, jocks, geeks, smokers, non-smokers, drinkers, non-drinkers, etc. but when we were in that room at least we had the common ground of all being students at that university and living in that dorm.

Our public schools should be treated like that common room. America is a melting pot, let's truly embrace that and stop trying to force our views outside of our private spaces. Now if the government or the PC people try and step into your home, your church, your car, your clothes, then I'll be the first to step up and take your side.
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