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Old 03-21-2004, 03:41 PM   #1
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Christians! It may be time to convert->

There seems to be a Protestant denomination that embraces Jeses' triue teachings of LOVE and compasion and exceptance.




Quote:
Jury Says Lesbian Methodist Can Keep Ministry
Sun Mar 21, 2004 02:49 PM ET

SEATTLE (Reuters) - A Methodist clergy jury unanimously ruled that a lesbian minister can continue to be a minister and remain in a homosexual relationship, church officials said on Sunday after a trial that deeply divided the third-largest U.S. Christian group.
Rev. Karen Dammann, who has been a pastor for the past 10 years with the United Methodist Church, was deemed not guilty by a jury of clergy that the openly homosexual minister should not be banned from being a leader of the church.

"We, the trial court, do not find the evidence presented by the church counsel to be clear and convincing that Karen Dammann has engaged in any 'practices declared by the United Methodist Church to be incompatible with Christian teachings,"' the jury said in a statement after rendering its verdict on Saturday.

Dammann had sought a clergy appointment in 2001 that also acknowledged her sexual orientation, as she sought to return from a leave of absence. Her bishop, Elias Galvan, filed a complaint, which, after hearings in various church judicial councils, resulted in a church jury trial that began on Wednesday.

Several dozen supporters for Dammann were arrested by police on the first day as they blocked the doors of the church where the trial was being held in suburban Bothell north of Seattle.

Although the Methodist's Book of Discipline "states that homosexuals are people of sacred worth," the church had argued that it also "regards the practice of homosexuality as incompatible with Christian teachings."

But a senior clergy member, considered the church's foremost authority on church law, had testified that the Methodist Church had never explicitly banned homosexual clergy.

In 1987, a Methodist lesbian clergy member in New Hampshire lost her credentials for being openly gay.
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Old 03-21-2004, 09:47 PM   #2
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There is a slight misunderstanding behind all this. Homosexuality is against God. And God hates sin...but he LOVES the sinner. God is so holy that he cannot stand sin. That is why hell exists; ONE sin is worthy of eternal damnation. That is why he sent his son, Jesus, to pay for all of our sins. That's how much he loved us.

I don't want to argue about this but some people say christians are hate groups. And you know what? In some places that could easily be. You can't expect people to be perfect and correct because you will more often than not be dissapointed, Set your sides on He who is perfect and without sin because genuine Christianity is all about loving each other...even your enemies who hurt you.

If I offended anyone with this post, I am more than willing to talk about it.

Cheers
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Old 03-21-2004, 11:06 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
There is a slight misunderstanding behind all this. Homosexuality is against God. And God hates sin...but he LOVES the sinner. God is so holy that he cannot stand sin. That is why hell exists; ONE sin is worthy of eternal damnation. That is why he sent his son, Jesus, to pay for all of our sins. That's how much he loved us.

You didn't offend, only confuse. Let's see now. God hates and loves and damns and loves again and


I tell you, some of you Christians. You want to have it both ways. First He loves us, then He damns us, then He loves us, but only if we do certain things.

Make up your minds.

Oh, and if you're offended by this post, I don't care.
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Old 03-21-2004, 11:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
There is a slight misunderstanding behind all this. Homosexuality is against God. And God hates sin...but he LOVES the sinner. God is so holy that he cannot stand sin. That is why hell exists; ONE sin is worthy of eternal damnation. That is why he sent his son, Jesus, to pay for all of our sins. That's how much he loved us.

So what' your point? Where is there a slight misunderstanding? I'm not going to argue if homosexuality is a sin or not because frankly I'm tired of this argument. God will judge us all. I'm tired of the Church denying certain people rights because "it's a sin". Everyone is a sinner, it doesn't matter the sin. I don't care if it's murder, divorce, lying, etc. everyone in the church is a sinner, why does the church see fit to "ban" certain sinners and turn a blind eye to others.

I'm glad the church did what they did. She should be allowed to continue. It surprises me. I used to be very involved with the Methodist Church when I was in high school and College. During college I was a paid church employee that acted as a youth minister to middle school and high school age groups. There was a huge controversy because a man who held a high position in the south Texas district came out of the closet. I had to sit in on some of the meetings, they forced him to quit. I was furious and quit my position that day, I told them my reasoning. Still to this day there are certain people at this church that will not speak to me when I go back and visit when I'm town visiting my parents. This was 8 years ago.
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Old 03-22-2004, 12:10 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
There is a slight misunderstanding behind all this. Homosexuality is against God. And God hates sin...but he LOVES the sinner.
As many times as I have refuted this statement, it still comes up. "Homosexuality," as we know it today, did not exist in the cultural mindframe until the past 100 years, and, even then, really only the past 30 years.

Before then, it was perceived as straight people consciously choosing to either humiliate people, rape people, or being possessed. Either way, these people essentially are portrayed as going back to being straight afterwards, which is not a true depiction of homosexuality as it really is.

Either way, "homosexuality" (a word and concept coined in 1874, way before the Bible was ever written) is mistakenly thrown into the Bible to translate concepts that we no longer have words for. Most depictions of "homosexuality" in the Bible are really references to pagan temple orgies and male temple prostitution, as sex was perceived as a way to be closer to the gods--and they were bisexual orgies that involved both men and women. In either way, the Bible is certainly against rape and idolatry; there are plenty of Bible stories involving condemned heterosexual acts as well, but do we suddenly put a blanket prohibition against heterosexual acts, because of them? NO.

"Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law." -- Romans 13:8-10

I've grown so very tired of legalistic Christianity...

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Old 03-22-2004, 12:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha
I tell you, some of you Christians. You want to have it both ways. First He loves us, then He damns us, then He loves us, but only if we do certain things.
And then Jesus condemns divorce too, very explicitly; yet, I certainly don't see the "moral outrage," nor do we ever talk about how idolatrous all these remarried heterosexuals are and how they are all going to rot in hell by this same logic.

But then there's that whole faith, not works argument for salvation...except, somehow, works always seem to end up in the argument. So what is it? You can't have it both ways...except when it comes to religion, which can construct all the most irrational arguments in the world and never get challenged from within.

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Old 03-22-2004, 04:38 AM   #7
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i seem to agree with Melon, all the time !!

- approximately with 90% of the things he says.
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Old 03-22-2004, 07:38 AM   #8
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A co worker once told me, all sin is the same so it doesn't matter if you are gay, or a rapist, or commit adutery, or lust in your heart for your brother's wife, got drunk on Sunday, or if you stole a pen from work. You are still going to hell
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Old 03-22-2004, 07:41 AM   #9
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Speaking of divorce, will gay divorces be seen as moral outrage and sins or a good thing since some didn't want to see them married in the first place
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Old 03-22-2004, 07:45 AM   #10
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I agree with Martha.
Again.

I dont wish to post knowing I will offend anyone, so I wont. But I agree.

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Old 03-22-2004, 07:48 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by Leeloo
got drunk on Sunday, or if you stole a pen from work. You are still going to hell
What if it was Saturday and just spilled into Sunday?
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Old 03-22-2004, 07:54 AM   #12
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guess we have to wait for judgement day on that one!
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Old 03-22-2004, 07:57 AM   #13
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Hey, I just remembered a ghost documentary I saw once about a guy who was condemned to everlasting torture because he was playing cards and drinking on Sat. night and refused threats by friends to stop at midnight. He was a miserable ghost who walked the halls of his Scottish manor house. So that's the answer, you have to stop at midnight!
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Old 03-22-2004, 08:31 AM   #14
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Well, I have no intention of converting. I am a Christian, a Catholic, and I do my best to embrace Jesus' true teachings as I interpret them. Guess what- I support gay marriage. Wow, what a shocker huh? I don't hate gay people. Of course I judge people on an individual basis, that's how I determine how I feel about them.

There was deep division over that case, so obviously not all Methodists "embrace the true teachings of Jesus", just as in the case of the Episcopal bishop Rev. Robinson.

So one can "spin" this I guess to make it fit one's view of Christians and Christianity.
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Old 03-22-2004, 03:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
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So one can "spin" this I guess to make it fit one's view of Christians and Christianity.
Thats a good point, and makes for an interesting debate. Its all about the "spin" and or the context of a scripture, a discussion or a belief. If I believe that gays in the clergy is ok, there are people who will argue with me, they can give scientific points of view, share thier own experiences or even quote scripture.
If I believe its not ok, there are people who will argue with me, give the scientific points, quote scripture and maybe give experiences theve had too.
So, where does this leave us? This argument will never be "solved" in my opinion. Jesus did in fact tell us to love our neighbor. Thats a huge statement which should never be undervalued, never! Now, is that all we should ever mention and close the discussion? Maybe, who am I to say? Im always very suspicious of those that offer absolute "answers" when it comes to theology. And most peoples opinions come across as fact in an argument. And thats not to say that thier arent absolutes, but I digress.
Finally, to my point. As a Christian, I dont think it does any good to debate these issues, i really dont. Say what you will about me but more often than not a disagreement like this will never be "solved" and can usually end up being angry or personal when it didnt start that way. So, I propose we set aside a difference as some of us have and move on to the meat of the issue. The teachings of Jesus of Nazareth are my truth as I stated in another thread. It might not me yours, thats ok. Ok, ive rambled enough without even giving an opinion on the thread topic specifically. Sorry, im not giving one.
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