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Old 03-25-2004, 09:03 PM   #46
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Alright I'm joining Dread, this thread has gone far off the ridiculous cliff.
I gave up on people a long time ago. They are, for the most part, utterly hopeless and completely lack empathy. On the opposite end, I was cursed with too much of it.

Until the dominant hegemony understands what it is like to be a member of the subordinate hegemony ("minority") of any kind, they will continue to parade their right to oppose homosexuals. After all, their Bible told them so, and, since they aren't homosexual themselves, there's really no need to challenge those beliefs. It is, thus, easier to blindly hate, rather than question the theology behind the anti-gay sentiment.

I can tell people until I'm blue in the face that translating these passages as a blanket condemnation of homosexuality to be utterly ridiculous. I can tell people that, instead, they are mistranslations of archaic practices that have been gone for so long that we do not have an English equivalent for the word--hence the reason why all these disparate words get such a blanketly incorrect translation on homosexuality. I can tell people that such a translation is heavily incorrect, being the equivalent of translating a prohibition against prostitution or rape and then blanketly translating it as a prohibition against heterosexuality.

But because it doesn't affect them, there is no need to free their minds. No, it is more comfortable to be numb, especially if it doesn't affect you in your personal life. But then these same people get irritated by same-sex marriage and insist on banning a practice that would give others immense happiness and never once affect them.

And all I can say to these people, in the least empathetic manner possible, is for them to f*ck themselves, and I hope that more communities follow the example of Multonomah County, Oregon by no longer granting opposite-sex marriage licenses. After all, maybe they need to understand what it is like to be denied formal recognition of their love, since they clearly don't get it empathetically.

I'm done with this crap thread. I don't need to argue with people who, really, will never be affected by any of this personally.

Melon
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:22 PM   #47
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Look, if somebody honestly has a problem with gay marriage...*Shrugs*. That's their opinion. I don't understand why, and will give my view on the whole thing and debate the reasoning with them and all that, but it's up to them if they wish to agree with me or not. I'm not going to force it on them.

My blood really gets boiling, however, when people support a ban on gay marriage (and I'm not saying anyone here does). Those who do support a ban wouldn't like it if somebody barred them from marrying somebody they loved dearly just because they had a problem with that kind of love, so I really don't understand why they feel they have the right to do that to homosexuals. That's what makes me mad most of all.

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Old 03-25-2004, 11:10 PM   #48
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Can I just check I'm understanding you clearly: the abolitionists were extremists and religious zealots? I don't think I've heard that argument before, would you mind explaining a bit about why you think that?
Anti-slavery movements in England and the US were essentially Christian based.
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Old 03-25-2004, 11:19 PM   #49
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Originally posted by melon
I gave up on people a long time ago. They are, for the most part, utterly hopeless and completely lack empathy. On the opposite end, I was cursed with too much of it.

Until the dominant hegemony understands what it is like to be a member of the subordinate hegemony ("minority") of any kind, they will continue to parade their right to oppose homosexuals. After all, their Bible told them so, and, since they aren't homosexual themselves, there's really no need to challenge those beliefs. It is, thus, easier to blindly hate, rather than question the theology behind the anti-gay sentiment.

I can tell people until I'm blue in the face that translating these passages as a blanket condemnation of homosexuality to be utterly ridiculous. I can tell people that, instead, they are mistranslations of archaic practices that have been gone for so long that we do not have an English equivalent for the word--hence the reason why all these disparate words get such a blanketly incorrect translation on homosexuality. I can tell people that such a translation is heavily incorrect, being the equivalent of translating a prohibition against prostitution or rape and then blanketly translating it as a prohibition against heterosexuality.

But because it doesn't affect them, there is no need to free their minds. No, it is more comfortable to be numb, especially if it doesn't affect you in your personal life. But then these same people get irritated by same-sex marriage and insist on banning a practice that would give others immense happiness and never once affect them.

And all I can say to these people, in the least empathetic manner possible, is for them to f*ck themselves, and I hope that more communities follow the example of Multonomah County, Oregon by no longer granting opposite-sex marriage licenses. After all, maybe they need to understand what it is like to be denied formal recognition of their love, since they clearly don't get it empathetically.

I'm done with this crap thread. I don't need to argue with people who, really, will never be affected by any of this personally.

Melon
Melon, you have stated your arguments many times. You make a number of good points and have obviously put a lot of effort studying various passages. I can't say I agree with parts of your analysis.

I doubt you would claim to have the only correct understanding of Scripture. I would not make such a claim.

If you are correct, you should be able to live in God's peace in a sinful world. Lord knows the world has told me I am wrong many times.

Peace
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Old 03-26-2004, 12:31 AM   #50
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There's many feathers in many caps amongst the lovely people of FYM and Interference on the whole. While it is nice to broadly condemn the many for having biased and bigoted views, thus elevating ourselves above this very trait (when declaring it), truth is, it exists in most of us here. We might support gay marriage, equal rights for race, and any other 'liberal' idea, but I think bias is something we all have in some way or another. Its a horrible nasty human trait, but I sincerely doubt anyone here is pure enough to be in a position to point everyone else's out without first looking at ourselves. Never seeing it in ourselves, doesn't necessarily mean it isn't actually there.

Lets not cast stones.
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Old 03-26-2004, 06:14 AM   #51
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Anti-slavery movements in England and the US were essentially Christian based.
Yes, I'm aware of that, though I would hope being a Christian wasn't then and isn't now equivalent to being an "extremist" and "religious zealot."
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Old 03-26-2004, 06:55 AM   #52
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Yes, I'm aware of that, though I would hope being a Christian wasn't then and isn't now equivalent to being an "extremist" and "religious zealot."
Obviously you either didn't see or chose to ignore both my long posts answering your question.

No question there was that fringe to the movement, and though they were not all extremists many in their opposition did portray them all that way in order to discredit their cause, just as happens with anti-abortionists today. Not all of them are extremists either, and of course being a Christian does not automatically make anyone a zealot. I explained all that fully in my other posts and I hope you will read them
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Old 03-26-2004, 10:58 AM   #53
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Yes, I'm aware of that, though I would hope being a Christian wasn't then and isn't now equivalent to being an "extremist" and "religious zealot."
I would hope so as well. Sadly, it does happen.
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Old 03-26-2004, 11:32 AM   #54
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
While it is nice to broadly condemn the many for having biased and bigoted views, thus elevating ourselves above this very trait (when declaring it), truth is, it exists in most of us here. We might support gay marriage, equal rights for race, and any other 'liberal' idea, but I think bias is something we all have in some way or another.


Lets not cast stones.
Yeah, everyone has a bias of some sort. We all have different experiences that shape who we are and how we think. But I'm not upset that my thinking excludes acceptance and tolerance of those who would gladly relegate entire groups of people to second-class status merely becuase of their color, religion, or sexual orientation. I will listen to their views, but I reserve the right to challenge their thinking. Fortunately, others have done so in the past, so now those whose skin is a different shade than mone are free to participate in my society, those whose religion is sifferent from mine are not allowed to prees theirs upon me without my consent. Soon, those whose sexual orientation is different from mine will be allowed to fully participate as well.

So yeah, bias is there. But some of us work it in a different way.
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Old 03-26-2004, 12:18 PM   #55
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this thread has totally confused me big time.

im christian, i read the bible once in a while, go to church say...once a year if im up to it, etc...

i have no problems with gay marriage, gays in the army, gay whatever. my best friend was gay. he went to church. he couldnt change to what people wanted him to be. he was in huge conflict with himself, his beliefs, so he killed himself.

so am i supposed to change my views on gays in church especially in a leadership role? personally, i dont think they should be there.


so the question is, how much more of my beliefs should i throw out the windows because of this?

this is just totally confusing me and its about ruined my day.
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:05 PM   #56
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so am i supposed to change my views on gays in church especially in a leadership role? personally, i dont think they should be there.


so the question is, how much more of my beliefs should i throw out the windows because of this?

this is just totally confusing me and its about ruined my day.
Now I'm confused. You do believe in gays in the military, marriage, etc. but you don't believe they should hold a leadership role in the church? So you would have denied your friend this profession if that's what they wanted to do?
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:06 PM   #57
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this thread has totally confused me big time.

im christian, i read the bible once in a while, go to church say...once a year if im up to it, etc...

i have no problems with gay marriage, gays in the army, gay whatever. my best friend was gay. he went to church. he couldnt change to what people wanted him to be. he was in huge conflict with himself, his beliefs, so he killed himself.

so am i supposed to change my views on gays in church especially in a leadership role? personally, i dont think they should be there.


so the question is, how much more of my beliefs should i throw out the windows because of this?

this is just totally confusing me and its about ruined my day.
The thread's initial story deals with church governance in the Methodist denomination. It was not started to understand the differences in the Methodist denomination nor to examine how a church deals with conflicting ideas.

You have no need to throw out your beliefs. Perhaps that is the goal of some. If anything, it makes me want to spend more time with God through reading the Bible and prayer.
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Old 03-26-2004, 01:57 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by icelle
so am i supposed to change my views on gays in church especially in a leadership role? personally, i dont think they should be there.


so the question is, how much more of my beliefs should i throw out the windows because of this?
I guess I don't really understand why you would oppose gay people holding leadership roles within a church. You've said you don't agree with discriminating against gay people in other scenarios, for example marriage and military service, so why do you believe it's still okay for gay people to be discriminated against in church?

I don't think it has anything to do with throwing beliefs out of the window. It is about accepting people for who they are, recognising their talents and allowing them to achieve their potential whether they are black or white, straight or gay, male or female. It's that simple.
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Old 03-26-2004, 02:00 PM   #59
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Now I'm confused. You do believe in gays in the military, marriage, etc. but you don't believe they should hold a leadership role in the church? So you would have denied your friend this profession if that's what they wanted to do?


no, i dont believe gays should hold leadership roles in church.

and whether or not my friend wanted to be a pastor or not, i wouldnt agree with the decision. its not up to me to deny or approve. i can still disagree and love him.
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Old 03-26-2004, 03:26 PM   #60
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no, i dont believe gays should hold leadership roles in church.

and whether or not my friend wanted to be a pastor or not, i wouldnt agree with the decision. its not up to me to deny or approve. i can still disagree and love him.
Alright I just wanted to make sure.

Me, personally anyone who truly wants to serve God in this manner should be allowed to. If it's truly in their heart then why would I deny them and others this gift. We have so many awful people in religious positions throughout the world, I just don't know why some people would want to deny a truly devoted and loving person and the congregation this. I never will.
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