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Old 03-24-2004, 01:05 PM   #31
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well against my better judgement I'm going to respond to this.

looks like we were thinking the same thing at the same time
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:06 PM   #32
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I merely stated my opinion and tried to explain why others think like me and why there is such an oppossition. I don't agree with you but I'm not calling you "bigots" or whatever. I never even tried to make you change your minds.

So relax...
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:10 PM   #33
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Main Entry: big∑ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big∑ot∑ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big∑ot∑ed∑ly adverb
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Old 03-24-2004, 11:14 PM   #34
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No Difference Between Gay & Straight Parents Court Told

Posted: March 24, 2004 5:14 p.m. ET

(Little Rock, Arkansas) A Little Rock court where the state's ban on gay foster parents is being challenged has been told there is no difference between gay parents and straight ones and that gays are no more likely than heterosexuals to be pedophiles.

Arkansas bars gays and lesbians from serving as foster parents, although the law does not prevent them from adopting.

The ban was imposed by the state Child Welfare Agency Review Board in March 1999. The board said it imposed the ban on households with gay adults in an effort to protect children from disease, violence, sexual abuse, neglect and instability.

In 2001 an attempt was made to ban gay adoption, but legislators refused.

Nebraska is the only other state to ban gay foster parents; Florida and Mississippi ban gay adoptions

The suit challenging the ban was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of four prospective foster parents.

The nonjury trial is being heard by Pulaski County Circuit Judge Tim Fox.

Michael Lamb, chief of the National Institute of Child Health and Human Developmentís section on Social and Emotional Development testified that there is no evidence to support the contention that gays canít be as good at parenting as heterosexuals.

Lamb said studies of children raised by both homosexual and heterosexual people show no more behavior problems for children reared by homosexuals. He also said children reared by gays are no more likely to become gay.

Being raised by gay parents would not have negative consequences for children, he said.


He also said that children donít necessarily require an adult male as one of their care givers. ďItís become clear that the absence of a male figure is really not important,Ē Lamb said.

He said children with behavioral problems rises from 15 percent in two-parent homes to 30 percent in single-parent homes. ďThereís a clear consensus that children are more likely to be maladjusted when raised by single parents,Ē he said.

Dr. Fred Berlin, founder of the Sexual Disorders Clinic at Johns Hopkins University testified that heterosexual married men are just as likely to be pedophiles as gay men.

The court also heard from a Waldron, Arkansas man whose family has sheltered abused gay children at its own expense. William Wagner testified that he and his wife of 30 years were not allowed to become foster parents because his adult son, William, is gay and sometimes stays in their home.

The trial expected to continue through the week.
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:09 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Elvis
Main Entry: big∑ot
Pronunciation: 'bi-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, hypocrite, bigot
: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices
- big∑ot∑ed /-g&-t&d/ adjective
- big∑ot∑ed∑ly adverb
Well, according to that definition I would venture to say there's more souls on this forum than just browneyedboy that are guilty of bigotry in one area or another.....on both sides of the political spectrum.


I did want to ask, since Browneyedboy was point-blank labeled a bigot, do the majority of you (or any of you) here feel that all individuals opposed to homosexual marriage and view homosexuality as a sin are hateful bigots, equal in evilness to those that kept slaves or murdered Jews?
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Old 03-25-2004, 03:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by maude


I did want to ask, since Browneyedboy was point-blank labeled a bigot, do the majority of you (or any of you) here feel that all individuals opposed to homosexual marriage and view homosexuality as a sin are hateful bigots, equal in evilness to those that kept slaves or murdered Jews?
First of all this thread had nothing to do with marriage, it had to do with the fact of if this woman could continue to be clergy or not, now that she came out of the closet. BEB's response didn't give any insightful piece of information as to why he was opposed to it. He just came out and said he doesn't want his kids to imitate or "want" to be gay.

Now yes this is his opinion but in a forum designed for debate statements like this don't fly. In his mind gay people aren't worthy of being role models to his children. Now replace gay with black, hispanic, Jew, etc. and tell me if you would still be comfortable with allowing people in this forum to make blanket statements like this without any logical reasoning.
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Old 03-25-2004, 03:50 PM   #37
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^ Nicely said.
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:14 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by maude
I did want to ask, since Browneyedboy was point-blank labeled a bigot, do the majority of you (or any of you) here feel that all individuals opposed to homosexual marriage and view homosexuality as a sin are hateful bigots, equal in evilness to those that kept slaves or murdered Jews?
I've thought about how to answer this for a few hours, since I have an unpleasant suspicion that someone's going to try and paint me as being a holocaust-denier or something equally abhorent for what I'm about to say. (For the record, I've worked on numerous anti-racism campaigns, including a campaign to prevent a notorious holocaust-denier from speaking on a university campus.)

Frankly, the ideas behind slavery and the holocaust bear a lot of similiarity to the ideas behind homophobia. Slavery was justified on the basis that Black people weren't equal to white people; the holocaust was justified (in part) by the belief that Jewish people were inferior. Homophobia is justified by the belief that there is something inherently wrong with homosexuality.

So while I wouldn't say that your average idiot homophobe is as bad as Nazis or slave-owners, I would say that homophobia is every bit as much an evil as racism and anti-semitism. There are plenty of racists out there who don't own slaves and plenty of anti-semites who weren't involved in the holocaust, but that doesn't make their bigotry acceptable.
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:43 PM   #39
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this is one of those threads...I am sorry I stepped into.
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Old 03-25-2004, 06:03 PM   #40
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
I've thought about how to answer this for a few hours, since I have an unpleasant suspicion that someone's going to try and paint me as being a holocaust-denier or something equally abhorent for what I'm about to say. (For the record, I've worked on numerous anti-racism campaigns, including a campaign to prevent a notorious holocaust-denier from speaking on a university campus.)

Frankly, the ideas behind slavery and the holocaust bear a lot of similiarity to the ideas behind homophobia. Slavery was justified on the basis that Black people weren't equal to white people; the holocaust was justified (in part) by the belief that Jewish people were inferior. Homophobia is justified by the belief that there is something inherently wrong with homosexuality.

So while I wouldn't say that your average idiot homophobe is as bad as Nazis or slave-owners, I would say that homophobia is every bit as much an evil as racism and anti-semitism. There are plenty of racists out there who don't own slaves and plenty of anti-semites who weren't involved in the holocaust, but that doesn't make their bigotry acceptable.
.

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Old 03-25-2004, 07:35 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by maude


Well, according to that definition I would venture to say there's more souls on this forum than just browneyedboy that are guilty of bigotry in one area or another.....on both sides of the political spectrum.


Yeah, I think that a lot. Not only in this thread or on this forum. So many people consider themselves so "liberal" "all inclusive" and "open minded" but let someone disagree with THEIR views and they attack like a pit bull and all the "open mindedness" and is gone and replaced by I'm right, you're wrong, shut up. Now isn't that the same thing liberals hate about "right wingers?" So, I don't see a difference I am not even talking about a particular issue here, I don't give a shit who marries who, you can marry your dog for all I care. It's the priciple of the hypocrisy that bothers me.

I also become bothered by seeing slavery compared to the Holocaust. Both were bad but not the same thing. With slavery, it was more people justifying something they wanted to do and not feel guilty about, so they convinced themselves it wasn't wrong, used any argument to rationalize it, and shouted down all those who tried to point out how wrong it was. A lot like abortion is now. I would compare it more with abortion than the Holocaust, though some anti-abortion groups compare abortion to the Holocaust. But I'm not talking religion or politics here, only looking at it objectively the way it seems to me.

Some of the slaveholders' common defenses when confronted by the abolitionsists (who were most often extremists and religious zealots as most anti-abortionists are today) were the same rhetoric we hear today from pro-abortionists, like, it's my life, if you don't want to own slaves don't but don't deny me my choice, it's not your business, my personal decision, nothing wrong with it by my conscious so don't judge me by yours, etc. Yes, the people who owned slaves (only 25% of Southerners, mostly rich) tried to justify it because they wanted to do it and they didn't want anyone to tell them they were wrong so they had to make their opposers look wrong. So I compare it more to the justification of abortion than the genocide againt Jews. Genocide did occur in the US in the 19th century, but it was against the Indians, not the blacks. Again, it was justified, they called them savages, dehumanized them, and you know what I'm getting at, my fingers are too stiff from typing.
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Old 03-25-2004, 07:51 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Lilac
Some of the slaveholders' common defenses when confronted by the abolitionsists (who were most often extremists and religious zealots as most anti-abortionists are today)
Can I just check I'm understanding you clearly: the abolitionists were extremists and religious zealots? I don't think I've heard that argument before, would you mind explaining a bit about why you think that?
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Old 03-25-2004, 08:03 PM   #43
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Because everything I've ever seen or read portrayed them as church based, very deeply religious Christians who formed these anti-slavery societies. They were often led by preachers. They used religion as a basis for slavery being evil. Take John Brown for example. He was such a religious zealot he believed slave owners should be murdered, and he and his sons and their gang led raids that did kill people. They intended to kill in Harper's Ferry the night they were caught, but only person was killed, ironically a free black man was shot. So in that way John Brown can be compared to anti-abortionists who blow up clinics and kill doctors. They are so fervent they believe they are doing the Lord's work. Of course not every abolitionist was as extreme as Brown just as not every anti-abortionist supports violence against clinics and doctors. But most of them are/were known as very religious and that was behind both movements.
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Old 03-25-2004, 08:36 PM   #44
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There is much evidence that the abolitionists were mostly Evangelical Christians who believed ending slavery was a high moral purpose. Like the anti-abortionists, they were scorned, joked on, and criticized by many for years, and only long after their ultimate victory were they glorified. They were so despised in the south in the 1840's that both the Methodists and Baptists churches broke with their brethren in the north when they learned the ones in the north wanted to use the churches to spread the message of the evils of slavery in the south to convert southerners and make them see the evil of their ways. They didn't want to see it, they wanted to believe their ridiculous justifications because it was too inconvenient to them to think of giving up their slaves. Also, the abolitionists were criticized for their methods and for handing out anti-slavery literature. Their pamphets featuring a scantily clad black man on his knees in chains with the caption "Am I not a man and a brother" was as offensive to some in those days as the pic of the aborted fetus is now. There is plenty of historical documentation on all this. It will take time but I can dig up links if you are really interested.

Back to 'extremists' now. After John Brown was hung for his insurrection (he not only intended to start a slave rebellion, he had stole an arsenal of guns and was going to try to take over the government of the US) his diehard supporters called him a martyr and a saint. This man was a cold blooded killer, yet they honestly believed he was in Heaven and was more righteous than slave owners. There were plenty of them. In fact, the song "Battle Hymn of the Republic" which became the Yankee battle song, was written to the tune of "John Brown's Body" and here are the original lyrics:

John Brown's body lies a molding in the grave
John Brown's body lies a molding in the grave
John Brown's body lies a molding in the grave
But his soul goes marching on!
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord
He's gone to be a soldier in the army of the Lord
but his truth goes marching on!

"His truth" meaning his cause, abolition. But remember now, this man had violently killed people in Kansas because they were pro-slavery, he had led an uprising and intended to take over the US gov't, yet he was still revered by many people because they really believed he was sent by God to end slavery! If that is not religious extremism and zealots, I don't know what is.

As I stated previously, not all abolitionists were that exteme as not all anti-abortinists support the guys who shoot doctors and bomb clinics. But the parallel is there, some are extremists, some are/were only deeply religious and believe their cause is a holy and moral obligation. For some politics was more of a factor than religion. But my point is the comparisons can be made.
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Old 03-25-2004, 08:37 PM   #45
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Alright I'm joining Dread, this thread has gone far off the ridiculous cliff.
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