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Old 03-09-2004, 10:04 PM   #31
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Originally posted by beli
Oh, I am waffling now. Iím just having such a hard time getting my head around things. I really really want to understand the concept of grace but I just canít get my head around it and I have just burst into tears for no apparent reason so I will stop.
No worries. Do you have any specific questions about it? That way we could make it as understandable as possible. Maybe you could just post for me, what do you already understand and what are you still having trouble with and we can clear some things up.
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Old 03-09-2004, 10:05 PM   #32
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Originally posted by anitram
But the Saints are honoured due to the Divine, supernatural gifts that have been granted to them, and have earned them eternal life.
But I thought that EVERYONE who accepts Grace and goes to Heaven gets eternal life?


Beli Sometimes I burst into tears about this stuff too.
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Old 03-09-2004, 10:46 PM   #33
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But I thought that EVERYONE who accepts Grace and goes to Heaven gets eternal life?
MrsEdge, therein lies the difference between Catholicism/Orthodox Christianity and Protestantism. The former believes that you need works and faith, some Protestant sects believe in the concept of accepting Grace as the ultimate way to salvation. Does that make more sense? Basically, you would need to really look into the historical reasons for the development of Protestantism and then its splintering to see which sect believes exactly what.

As of today, the UN estimates that Christianity breaks down into:

Roman Catholicism (and Eastern rite Catholicism, like for example the Ukrainian Catholic Church which follows the Eastern calendar)
Eastern Orthodoxy
And over 20,000 Protestant sects.

That's why it's hard to tell you what a "Christian" believes it, but it's easier to look at it on a case to case basis.
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Old 03-09-2004, 11:05 PM   #34
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Originally posted by anitram



Roman Catholicism (and Eastern rite Catholicism, like for example the Ukrainian Catholic Church which follows the Eastern calendar)
Eastern Orthodoxy
And over 20,000 Protestant sects.

Is this supposed to be a subtle bash of Protestantism? B/c I sincerely doubt that ALL Catholics and Eastern churches are the same. I mean, you've got the Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox, et, etc, etc. As for Catholicism I have no comment since I've never been or known anyone that's Catholic, but I can't believe that it can't be broken down. Why not just say the Christian religion breaks down as such:

Catholicism
Eastern Orthodoxy
Protestantism
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Old 03-09-2004, 11:18 PM   #35
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But I thought that EVERYONE who accepts Grace and goes to Heaven gets eternal life?
In some traditions, individuals are honored with sainthood. Biblically, all believers are referred to as saints.
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Old 03-09-2004, 11:26 PM   #36
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Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic

B/c I sincerely doubt that ALL Catholics and Eastern churches are the same. Why not just say the Christian religion breaks down as such:

Catholicism
Eastern Orthodoxy
Protestantism
Because there is no such thing as "Catholicism." There is Eastern Rite and Roman Catholicism. They are slightly different. And because the United Nations says there are 20K+ Protestant sects. I merely copied the data out of Oxtoby, that is all. I'm not sure why you're looking for a slight or reading more into it. I don't care for Protestantism or Catholicism, as I'm practicing neither. The 20K sects are very different, as a Baptist is not a Calvinist is not an Anglican is not a Methodist, etc, etc. Important to note, I think.

I don't understand your first sentence. Are you talking about Catholics or Catholic Churches? There is one united Catholic Church, under the leadership of the Pope. I'm not sure where you get the idea different Churches are different. Yes, in different countries, you have different customs but the dogma is the same. This is not the case among multiple sects.
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Old 03-10-2004, 02:50 AM   #37
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Originally posted by anitram

Yes, in different countries, you have different customs but the dogma is the same. This is not the case among multiple sects.
But wouldn't it be the same for Protestantism as well if all of the "sects" are labelled Protestantism? Even if there are multiple sects, they must all share common doctrine to be considered Protestant, just like all the RC churches have the same dogma.

I personally can't stand the divisions in Protestantism. I feel like some of them are so minor and insignificant that we can't even tell the difference anymore. Not to mention it makes Protestantism look too relative. But I suppose it's inevitable since Protestantism was divided into four parts within the first few decades of it's existance. I've always found the unity of the RC and Eastern Orthodox churches very appealing. Even though RC has many church orders (I just found this site that listed 30 or so) they can all claim to be "Catholic". I wish the Protestant groups could come together somehow so that we could all claim a single faith regardless of the minor differences in styles of worship, insignificant interpretations of scripture, etc.
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Old 03-10-2004, 08:43 AM   #38
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Originally posted by anitram


But this is the principle of karma.

You are accountable for the choices you make because they amount to positive or negative karma, depending on what they are.
I agree

my point was that it can be kinda bitter when it feels like nothing goes your way while you you try your best to be at least a decent person
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Old 03-10-2004, 11:12 AM   #39
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LivLuv...,

Those Church orders refer to monastic life, like ie. the Jesuits (seen as the order which integrated education and religion), the Franciscans (they live very simple lives), the Dominicans, etc. Both priests and nuns belong to different orders, but those orders determine the organization of their personal lives and also the sorts of social issues that the particular order really focusses on. The Church is still the same, the mass is the same, the sacraments are the same and the dogma is the same, even if the priests' background is different. Does that make sense?

But for example, if you look at Baptists, they are not all the same, because there isn't that hierarchy of priest/bishop/cardinal/Pope, so that in a city it is possible to have the 1st Baptist Church and the 2nd Baptist Church and have those two not be affiliated with one another. I agree with you that the splintering may be inconsequential in some places. Also, while the unified nature of the Roman Catholic Church looks good on paper, it's also an illusion of sorts because North American Catholics are very different from the ones in say, Latin America. In general, very leftist Catholics have been branded "cafeteria Catholics" meaning that they pick and choose what they like about the Church's teachings and ignore the rest (ie. abortion/birth control/homosexuality). So you have a united church and people who follow their own creed, but they haven't really splintered in the traditional sense.

I think in today's global world, we'll see even more splitting off, not unification. I guess it's the name of the game.
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Old 03-10-2004, 11:27 AM   #40
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I think it's depressing how Christianity is so divided. It just weakens itself and seems to push God out of the building everytime another church breaks off. Unfortunately I think we'll see more divisions before mergers in the future.
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Old 03-10-2004, 06:37 PM   #41
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NBC, please post the denomination comparision here, and not just as a pm to Mrs Edge. I would love to read it too. please, please, please.
Attached is a text file that gives brief answers for comparison regarding the beliefs and practices of the following:

Biblical Christianity
Mormonism
Jehovah's Witnesses
Unification Church
Christian Science
Scientology





edited to reformat attachment
Attached Files
File Type: doc biblical christianity.doc (31.5 KB, 12 views)
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Old 03-10-2004, 06:51 PM   #42
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I cant see the attachment
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Old 03-10-2004, 06:54 PM   #43
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I tried reformatting the attachment. It is a chart, which does not work in .txt format. It is now a Word document. Download and open with Word. Sorry for the trouble.
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Old 03-10-2004, 06:56 PM   #44
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Ta
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Old 03-13-2004, 02:41 AM   #45
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Vincent thank you for your explaination. That one clicked the most with me.

I worked it out. I am reading these posts and then looking at the Christians I know. ie none of the ones I know act the way you guys are describing. Thats what has been confusing me. Most of the Christians I know, and I dont know an awful lot as Perth is not a very religious place, seem to think its okay to annoy/insult/emotionally hurt people as long as they apologise to God (ie and not the 'injured' person). I have been accused of 'making a scene' many times when I have wanted to resolve unresolved bitterness but no one wants to play ball. I get the feeling that I wouldnt have such a big barney with any of you guys in the first place, and second, if we did, it would have a much higher chance of being resolved.

Thank you for your patience. Im glad I finally worked it out. Thanks LivLuv for your generous offer
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