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Old 03-14-2007, 12:06 PM   #31
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Ormus, maybe you're right. I don't know. At the same time though, I think you're kind of missing my point. After looking up the definition of Lord, "someone who has authority, control and power over someone," I'm not sure the term Lord is such a stretch to use, or so "sloppy" as you said. Our part of the relationship is to hand our lives over to Christ. Yes, there are many verses where the Bible explains we are free in Christ and we are heirs, but there are also many verses that explain our part of the relationship as slaves. Therefore, Lord seems to fit just fine.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:13 PM   #32
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When I think of God as "Lord", I think of some being who is farther away, but controls and watches over everything, even if I (like the peasant) doesn't realize it or actively participate. The word "Lord" helps me define God as being in control even though he is not tangible. There are other words I use when talking about God with regard to the relationships between God and people, words that imply more closeness.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:35 PM   #33
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Lord became the personal name for God, replacing Yahweh, when referring to the Redeemer of Israel.


Quote:
Encyclopedia Britannica states:


... from the 3rd century BC on, Jews ceased to use the name Yahweh for two reasons. As Judaism became a universal religion through its proselytizing in the Greco-Roman world, the more common noun elohim, meaning "god," tended to replace Yahweh to demonstrate the universal sovereignty of Israel's God over all others. At the same time, the divine name was increasingly regarded as too sacred to be uttered; it was thus replaced vocally in the synagogue ritual by the Hebrew word Adonai ("My Lord"), which was translated as Kyrios ("Lord") in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:40 PM   #34
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Thanks for posting that, INDY. I'd forgotten about Adonai.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
Thanks for posting that, INDY. I'd forgotten about Adonai.
I hadn't thought about the genesis of the word myself in some time. In defense of Ormus, the Latin word for lord "Dominus" also appears very early, around the 4th century.

Which just reminded me of a science fiction short story by Arthur C Clarke.
'The Nine Billion Names Of God' 1953.
A Tibetan monastery has for three centuries been compiling a list of the many names of God, and asks for the use of a computer to hasten the process.
I won't tell how it ends.
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:20 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
At the same time, the divine name was increasingly regarded as too sacred to be uttered; it was thus replaced vocally in the synagogue ritual by the Hebrew word Adonai ("My Lord"), which was translated as Kyrios ("Lord") in the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament.

...

I hadn't thought about the genesis of the word myself in some time. In defense of Ormus, the Latin word for lord "Dominus" also appears very early, around the 4th century.
You do bring up an interesting point that I'd like to make. Since the literal English word, "Lord," did not exist prior to the existence of the Germanic tribes, then older concepts like "Adonai" and "Kyrios" cannot literally mean "Lord." However, as is the case with ancient literature, if a word refers to an archaic concept, translators will look for a modern equivalent--and that, I believe, is where the word "Lord" comes in. The actual original Biblical texts literally say "YHWH" or "Adonai" where "Lord" is translated in the Bible.

In the end, I want to say that I'm mainly arguing a linguistic point here. If people are comfortable with "YHWH" or "Adonai" being translated as "Lord," that's fine. On the other hand, I'm questioning whether it's an appropriate translation, whereupon you could say "God" instead. I want to say that I'm making these arguments with no "political correctness" intended. I'm just quite interested in linguistics and I believe in the importance of translating ancient texts, including the Bible, as accurately as possible.

Oh and, just to note, "Dominus" kind of illustrates my point about the difficulty of translating ancient concepts. "Dominus," in Latin, refers to a "master" or "owner," but was later translated in French as "sieur," which was later rendered in English as "sir." "Dominus" was also equivalent to the Greek title, "Tyrannos," which is where the English word, "Tyrant," came from. Chances are, both "Adonai" and "Kyrios" meant none of these things to the ancient people of Israel and Greece.
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Old 03-14-2007, 07:36 PM   #37
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I see where you're coming from, Ormus. You're making a great point. This happens with interpreting languages a lot where one language might not have an adequate word for the word of another language. That's where it helps to have a good background in studying the languages of origin — especially with the Bible.
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:15 PM   #38
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If people are comfortable with "YHWH" or "Adonai" being translated as "Lord," that's fine. On the other hand, I'm questioning whether it's an appropriate translation, whereupon you could say "God" instead.
Really we shouldn't, because while Genesis 1 says "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," by Genesis 2 we have "The Lord God took man and put him in the Garden of Eden." Lord God being redundant if the two words were interchangeable.
In practice, Lord should be used as a name, God as a title.

The origin of the English word God has the same history does it not? Germanic origin, used in translating the Greek word theos or the Latin word deus (which becomes Dios in Spanish, Dieu in French and Dio in Italian) We can even see those roots in English words such as theology or deity.
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:37 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
The origin of the English word God has the same history does it not? Germanic origin, used in translating the Greek word theos or the Latin word deus (which becomes Dios in Spanish, Dieu in French and Dio in Italian) We can even see those roots in English words such as theology or deity.
You're right. I did mention this once in the forum here, but I completely forgot here.

"God" comes from the Old English "guþ" from the Proto-Germanic "*Ȝuđan"--a name for the Norse god, Odin ("Godan" in Lombardic). Interestingly, those are also the root words for the Goths, as they referred to themselves as the "Gutans." And, with that, "God" first appeared with the Arian missionary Ulfilas' Gothic translation of the Bible in the 4th century A.D.

"Deus" has an equally fascinating history, as it stretches back into even the oldest of Indo-European societies, including Hinduism. It comes from the Indo-European "*deiwos," distinct but closely related to *Dyēus," both of which were related to a great number of deities from the Greek Zeus to the Roman Jupiter to the Germanic war god, Tyr.

I guess my questioning of "Lord" is in the fact that its clearly a title of worldly nobility, whereas "God," "Deus," and "Theos" are names for a Supreme Being.
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Old 03-16-2007, 03:18 PM   #40
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Originally posted by LyricalDrug
She moves in mysterious ways, baby
It's spooky that you should mention that, because today it occured to me that the "she" of the song could be God.
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Old 03-16-2007, 03:44 PM   #41
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It's spooky that you should mention that, because today it occured to me that the "she" of the song could be God.
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Old 03-16-2007, 04:47 PM   #42
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She does indeed "move in mysterious ways"!! To be honest, I've noticed many synchronicities lately like this one. I think that "s/he" is with me and coming back to U2 fandom is a part of that (does that sound crazy???)
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Old 03-17-2007, 01:35 AM   #43
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It's spooky that you should mention that, because today it occured to me that the "she" of the song could be God.
It actually goes back to the idea someone mentioned earlier about the Holy Spirit being the feminine nature of God. Consider that Bono sings late in the song "The Spirit moves in mysterious ways."
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Old 03-17-2007, 01:38 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Merlot Goddess


She does indeed "move in mysterious ways"!! To be honest, I've noticed many synchronicities lately like this one. I think that "s/he" is with me and coming back to U2 fandom is a part of that (does that sound crazy???)
Nope. Not at all.

I myself became a committed Christian after realizing the lyrics from "Until the End of the World" were pulled almost stratight from the Gospels. Bono's brilliant use of the lyric/verses proved to me you could be smart, artistic, cool-as-hell AND be a Christian.

I hadn't experienced that before. Luckily, many Christians today are breaking that stereotype like Bono.
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Old 03-18-2007, 04:56 PM   #45
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It's a good thing to change the image of Christianity to attract younger people. The church I was brought up in has only older people and toddlers/preschoolers attending Sunday School.

I've not been a "Christian" in the strictest sense for years. For a little while now I've considered myself Buddhist, so this turn of events is a bit of a surprise... Buddhists aren't necessarily atheists though, so it fits better than it might first appear.
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