China VS. Taiwan - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-14-2005, 05:29 PM   #1
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 10:24 AM
China VS. Taiwan

1) Do you believe Taiwan has the right to officially declare its independence from China?

2) If China attempts to invade Taiwan(regardless of whether Taiwan had declared independence or not), do you support US and international military intervention to stop China?
__________________

__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 05:33 PM   #2
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 02:24 AM
1. no

2. no U S intervention (U S supports – one China policy)



China will not invade
without serious provocation fron nut-jobs in Taiwan.
__________________

__________________
deep is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 05:36 PM   #3
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 11:24 AM
1) Yes

2) On balance, no, as it is nothing to do with the international community, it is to do with China and Taiwan.


On a side note, one wonders what responses this allegedly far-left forum would throw up, if the following questions were asked:-

'(a) Do you agree with the concept of territorial integrity?

(b) If the US and other countries attempt to invade or attack Iran, would you support hypothetic Chinese/Russian intervention to stop the US and allied states?'

On another side note, another question could be posed:- 'Would you have supported international intervention to defend Catholics/Nationalists from Loyalist pogroms in Belfast and Derry in 1969?'
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 05:43 PM   #4
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: OC
Posts: 711
Local Time: 10:24 AM
Re: China VS. Taiwan

Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
1) Do you believe Taiwan has the right to officially declare its independence from China?

2) If China attempts to invade Taiwan(regardless of whether Taiwan had declared independence or not), do you support US and international military intervention to stop China?
1. No.

2. Maybe. Depends how China will handle Hsinchu.
__________________
cardosino is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 05:55 PM   #5
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by deep
1. no

2. no U S intervention (U S supports – one China policy)



China will not invade
without serious provocation fron nut-jobs in Taiwan.
1. Yes

2. Yes

Although I would support Taiwan officially declaring its independence from China, I would hope that they do not or at least delay such a declaration for some time, because it would help to avoid a conflict. Taiwan is already independent, its been independent for nearly 60 years now, it just has not officially declared its independence. If one day, democracy comes to China, I would then hope that Taiwan would reunify with mainland China. But as more time goes by, more and more people in Taiwan see themselves as an independent country. The majority of the population today was born in a Taiwan that was independent of the Chinese government.

The United States supports the "one China Policy" but has reserved the right to intervene with the US military if China decides to resolve its dispute with Taiwan with military force.

The US Navy and United States Marine Corp are deployed to rapidly come to Taiwan's aid in the event China attempts to invade. An entire Marine MEF(over 20,000 troops) is stationed in Okinawa and could be rushed to Taiwan in the event of an invasion.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 05:56 PM   #6
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:24 AM
1. Yes.
2. Maybe. Are you talking about a real international intervention
or another US and "a coalition of the willing"? Cause we are
not ready to take on China. Reserve opinion for now.


Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
On a side note, one wonders what responses this allegedly far-left forum would throw up, if the following questions were asked:-

'(a) Do you agree with the concept of territorial integrity?

(b) If the US and other countries attempt to invade or attack Iran, would you support hypothetic Chinese/Russian intervention to stop the US and allied states?'

On another side note, another question could be posed:- 'Would you have supported international intervention to defend Catholics/Nationalists from Loyalist pogroms in Belfast and Derry in 1969?' [/B]
a) Define. My instincts say yes. My intervention answers may
contradict.
b) Sigh. Yep, hypthothetically China would have the right to bring
in a military presence. Nasty can of worms we're opening up
here since I think China may be the next superpower.
c.) Yes.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 06:09 PM   #7
Vocal parasite
 
Axver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: 1853
Posts: 151,031
Local Time: 09:24 PM
1. Yes. I've always viewed Taiwan as a separate country anyway.

2. In the case of defending allies from external aggression, yes.
__________________
"Mediocrity is never so dangerous as when it is dressed up as sincerity." - Søren Kierkegaard

Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

U2gigs: The most comprehensive U2 setlist database!
Gig pictures | Blog
Axver is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 06:11 PM   #8
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
c.) Yes.

I would argue that the consequences of intervention would have been worse than any actual consequences that happened given no intervention.

Which is part of the reason I asked the question (and I admit I phrased it in a slightly leading way), and also part of the reason why I am sceptical of the idea of exporting freedom, and also of the idea of the 'international community' intervening to defend 'human rights', whether it is sponsored by the UN or by 'coalitions of the willing' acting more or less independently of the UN, given that in Northern Ireland there were always competing points of view, as in many other situations.

The problem in Northern Ireland in the late 60's/early 70's was often framed in terms of 'those loyalists are trying to oppress the innocent Catholics/nationalists', etc, hence leading people to adopt the view 'better send in an international force to protect them', etc. But it was never as simple as that. These things rarely are.

I note in passing that those lovers of freedom, the poor oppressed Kurdish nationalists, the noble freedom fighters against Saddam's oppressive regime, have seemingly been involved in recent TERRORIST atrocities in Turkey. Which begs the question, once again, when does a freedom fighter become a terrorist?

And frankly there isn't an easy answer to that question.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 06:19 PM   #9
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
1) Yes

2) On balance, no, as it is nothing to do with the international community, it is to do with China and Taiwan.


On a side note, one wonders what responses this allegedly far-left forum would throw up, if the following questions were asked:-

'(a) Do you agree with the concept of territorial integrity?

(b) If the US and other countries attempt to invade or attack Iran, would you support hypothetic Chinese/Russian intervention to stop the US and allied states?'

On another side note, another question could be posed:- 'Would you have supported international intervention to defend Catholics/Nationalists from Loyalist pogroms in Belfast and Derry in 1969?'

(a) To a certain degree yes. But, I do not support the idea that territorial integrity gives a country a right to engage in ethnic cleansing or other gross human rights abuses without having to face international intervention. Territorial integrity also does not give a country the right to engage in activities that threaten regional and global security.

(b) No and the Chinese and Russians would not intervene even if they wanted to. China does not have power projection capablities to fight a war hundreds or thousands of miles from its borders. The old Soviet Union had a border with Iran, but Russia does not and would have to cross through several independent countries and hundreds of miles of rough terrein to be positioned to intervene. Russia's military today is small and their power projection capabilities are a fraction of what the Soviet Union's was. Russia was nearly powerless to support their "Serb brothers" in the Kosovo war back in 1999.


In the Northern Ireland situation, the United Kingdom is a democracy and it was only a matter of time under which Catholics would receive the rights and protections they deserved. Unfortunately, the British Army and British Government made mistakes that worsened the conflict. The British Army was initially welcomed in Derry by the Catholics back in 1969 from what people told me when I was there 6 weeks ago.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 06:22 PM   #10
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
In the Northern Ireland situation, the United Kingdom is a democracy and it was only a matter of time under which Catholics would receive the rights and protections they deserved. Unfortunately, the British Army and British Government made mistakes that worsened the conflict. The British Army was initially welcomed in Derry by the Catholics back in 1969 from what people told me when I was there 6 weeks ago.
I agree with you 100% on all of these points.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 06:25 PM   #11
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 10:24 AM
1. Yes.
2. No. We're in no shape to take on China in a military confrontation. Hopefully the dispute could be worked out in a way that eventually satisfies all of the major players without bloodshed. That's probably too utopian........like a hell of alot of my ideas.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 06:26 PM   #12
Blue Crack Addict
 
phanan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: in the darkness on the edge of town
Posts: 25,061
Local Time: 05:24 AM
1. Yes
2. If there was a strong coalition of allied forces of the other largest countries in the world, then yes, But if it was a so-called U.S.-led coalition that consisted of us, Britian, and several smaller countries with very limited support, then no.
__________________
phanan is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 06:33 PM   #13
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Territorial integrity also does not give a country the right to engage in activities that threaten regional and global security.
'Activities that threaten regional and global security'......hmmmm.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 06:36 PM   #14
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London/Sydney
Posts: 6,608
Local Time: 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
1) Do you believe Taiwan has the right to officially declare its independence from China?
Yes they do have the right, but I certainly don't think they should. Like you say, Taiwan is effectively independent and has been for some time. What do they gain from declaring? Other than a warm fuzzy feeling, it's more trouble then it's worth. At this point, in 2005 there is no need or point. Who knows how it will play out in the future, as China evolves, maybe at some point in the future it will be a good and fine thing to do, with a smooth transition, but now, no need, no point, other than to put the middle finger up at China and to deliberately stir trouble.

Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
2) If China attempts to invade Taiwan(regardless of whether Taiwan had declared independence or not), do you support US and international military intervention to stop China?
Depends on how it plays out. If China made the first move to aggressively 'take back' Taiwan, seemingly out of nowhere, then I believe they (China) are in the wrong. By that I mean the Chinese military invade or seriously provoke (eg Chinese Navy blockades Taiwan or something). How the US and international community would react to that depends on timing more than anything. In 5-10 years who knows, but in 2005 I'd bet no shot would be fired and it would be years and years of 'talks' over the matter. However, if Taiwan takes steps to aggressively seperate from China, thus provoking a reaction, I think they are fools. Again I don't think it would actually come to a foreign military intervention, but it depends. Regardless, the US and every country on earth would be in both their ears telling them to hold the status quo and I'd bet that's the way it stays for years and years. The last thing China, the US and every other country in the world (particularly neighbours) want is China and the US staring each other down, let alone fighting. That would be absolutely devestating. Only an absolute madman would allow that to actually happen. So no, I do not agree with military intervention. Taiwan is in a tough spot, but they are effectively independent, and any moves to become more so, at worst, could result in something truly horrific. At best, there's not a hell of a lot that they'd gain. Weight it up and their best bet is to hold out for a better environment in the future, whenever that may be. China and the US squaring off is probably the worst case scenario in the world today.
__________________
Earnie Shavers is offline  
Old 08-14-2005, 06:55 PM   #15
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Earnie Shavers


Yes they do have the right, but I certainly don't think they should. Like you say, Taiwan is effectively independent and has been for some time. What do they gain from declaring? Other than a warm fuzzy feeling, it's more trouble then it's worth. At this point, in 2005 there is no need or point. Who knows how it will play out in the future, as China evolves, maybe at some point in the future it will be a good and fine thing to do, with a smooth transition, but now, no need, no point, other than to put the middle finger up at China and to deliberately stir trouble.



Depends on how it plays out. If China made the first move to aggressively 'take back' Taiwan, seemingly out of nowhere, then I believe they (China) are in the wrong. By that I mean the Chinese military invade or seriously provoke (eg Chinese Navy blockades Taiwan or something). How the US and international community would react to that depends on timing more than anything. In 5-10 years who knows, but in 2005 I'd bet no shot would be fired and it would be years and years of 'talks' over the matter. However, if Taiwan takes steps to aggressively seperate from China, thus provoking a reaction, I think they are fools. Again I don't think it would actually come to a foreign military intervention, but it depends. Regardless, the US and every country on earth would be in both their ears telling them to hold the status quo and I'd bet that's the way it stays for years and years. The last thing China, the US and every other country in the world (particularly neighbours) want is China and the US staring each other down, let alone fighting. That would be absolutely devestating. Only an absolute madman would allow that to actually happen. So no, I do not agree with military intervention. Taiwan is in a tough spot, but they are effectively independent, and any moves to become more so, at worst, could result in something truly horrific. At best, there's not a hell of a lot that they'd gain. Weight it up and their best bet is to hold out for a better environment in the future, whenever that may be. China and the US squaring off is probably the worst case scenario in the world today.
Just to clarify, If China suddenly attempted to invade Taiwan tomorrow, without any provication from Taiwan itself, would you support or not support US or international military intervention to protect Taiwan?
__________________

__________________
STING2 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com