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Old 05-15-2008, 03:48 PM   #46
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Originally posted by butter7


Oh, sorry, it seems they didn't wait for you to approve.
?? I think you got me wrong. I just never heard of any large pro-China demonstration in Germany. But here, at least, you are free to register a demonstration and then go on your march. And the police is there to protect your march and your free speech, not to control it.

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Please go to check the law in Germany before you post.

If you want to do the demonstration all by yourself, you probably don't have to apply, but for more than hundred, you need to get approved by both the government, and the police.

The demonstration hold in Berlin, got approved by the government, but the police forced them to change the route, to stay away from the parliament building.
It's basically right, though demonstrations almost always get approved. This is more of a formal thing in order to make sure that the roads can be closed, the route will be free (it would cause some problems if two demonstrations took the same route at the same time) and police can arrange for a safe demonstration.
There are only very few demonstrations that get allowed to directly pass the parliamentary building.
Nevertheless, our constitution guarantees us to assemble and to demonstrate.
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Old 05-16-2008, 04:19 AM   #47
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^!
I remember when I was in school we did a demonstration, cause we weren't allowed to have a graduation party.LOL We were ca. 50 people and got followed by 2 police cars, although we said that this is not necessary (the demonstration was a joke and not a serious statement), they followed us all time cause it is not allowed without police! It was just ridiculous ....
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:29 AM   #48
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Of course it's ridiculous, though if something happens everyone is going to ask "Where were the police to provide security?"
It's Germany after all, nothing goes without the right procedure.
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Old 05-16-2008, 05:33 AM   #49
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Originally posted by butter7


What really interesting is the pro-Tibet demonstration got passed.

Of course they were not promoting nationalistic political message, if you believe.
I don't believe that the Chinese state has a strong commitment to the freedoms of the Chinese people, I don't think that state stage managed protests offset locking up journalists, activists and bloggers.

Case in point
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China's state-run media reports that two people have been detained for allegedly spreading rumours about the earthquake that hit the country's south-west, killing more than 14,000 people.

The two people, from Chongqing province next to quake-hit Sichuan, have been ordered to be held for three days, Xinhua news agency quoted the Chongqing Public Security Bureau as saying.

Xinhua says one of them, surnamed Tang, released a picture on an internet forum purporting to show many Sichuan residents escaping the quake.

But police found Tang's picture was actually of a crowd celebrating an event linked to the upcoming Beijing Olympic Games in Chengdu, the capital of Sichuan.

The other, surnamed Jin, is said to have posted a picture of a department store building on an online forum and claimed its roof had collapsed. Police discovered the collapse never occurred.

Earlier this week, the Chinese government warned that anyone found spreading false rumours about the quake would be punished.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/15/2245068.htm?section=world

In the USA the media was brutal in it's coverage and exposure of government ineptitude surrounding Hurricane Katrina and they didn't get locked up over it. It is an issue of freedom, the freedom to question the government in order to hold it account.

If that is anti-nationalistic then so be it, it remains an important sentiment.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:54 AM   #50
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I don't believe that the Chinese state has a strong commitment to the freedoms of the Chinese people, I don't think that state stage managed protests offset locking up journalists, activists and bloggers.

Case in pointhttp://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/15/2245068.htm?section=world

In the USA the media was brutal in it's coverage and exposure of government ineptitude surrounding Hurricane Katrina and they didn't get locked up over it. It is an issue of freedom, the freedom to question the government in order to hold it account.

If that is anti-nationalistic then so be it, it remains an important sentiment.
I guess you have no understanding about certain things, and now I really feel that I have no responsibility for your education. Have told you too much already, from the 89 incident to German law. If you really interested in this subject, I'd suggest you to do a decent amout of academic research. News report can tell you "what", but never be able to tell you "why".

You reminded me one member in interference, who claim Confucius was the Jesus to Chinese people.

You know, the first time in my life, when I saw African people, I thought their skin colour was painted on. So I couldn't resist to touch and see if the colour would run off to my finger. It is stupid, but if I didn't do, I would still believe their skin colour was painted today.

I don't want to sell you my opinion, it probably would make you even more confused. You need to "touch the skin" by yourself and see if the colour runs off.
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:57 AM   #51
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^ well this gets us nowhere.

we'd like your perspective. please share, but don't expect it to go unchallenged. everyone's perspective is challenged in here (on a good day).
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:08 AM   #52
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Originally posted by Irvine511
^ well this gets us nowhere.

we'd like your perspective. please share, but don't expect it to go unchallenged. everyone's perspective is challenged in here (on a good day).
Because I really didn't intend to get you anywhere.

To be honest, I really didn't bother what your guys really think, it's "your business with your brain", why should I care? I just enjoy to see the battle in this forum sometimes.

And yes, I'm a typical Chinese. Righ now, I only care about the death figure, and the donation total.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:13 AM   #53
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Originally posted by butter7


Because I really didn't intend to get you anywhere.

To be honest, I really didn't bother what your guys really think, it's "your business with your brain", why should I care? I just enjoy to see the battle in this forum sometimes.

And yes, I'm a typical Chinese. Righ now, I only care about the death figure, and the donation total.


we all care about the death toll, and the donation total. the world is behind your people as they respond to this unspeakable tragedy.

but to show up, toss around a few insults, and then say, "yeah, i don't care what you think," really isn't doing much to bolster the credibility of your nationalism.

i'd love to hear more from you. i am very curious about your perspective on issues. i won't attack you, but i will challenge you.

but if you don't want to participate, that's fine.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:32 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7


I guess you have no understanding about certain things, and now I really feel that I have no responsibility for your education. Have told you too much already, from the 89 incident to German law. If you really interested in this subject, I'd suggest you to do a decent amout of academic research. News report can tell you "what", but never be able to tell you "why".

You reminded me one member in interference, who claim Confucius was the Jesus to Chinese people.

You know, the first time in my life, when I saw African people, I thought their skin colour was painted on. So I couldn't resist to touch and see if the colour would run off to my finger. It is stupid, but if I didn't do, I would still believe their skin colour was painted today.

I don't want to sell you my opinion, it probably would make you even more confused. You need to "touch the skin" by yourself and see if the colour runs off.
This isn't an issue of race, it is an issue of individual liberties. We are speaking past each other. I have an antipathy towards the Chinese state that is not born out of any negativity to the Chinese people.

The perspective that you convey is one that seems to tow the party line, it seems either willfully naive or well calculated and I do not think it is untoward to challenge those assumptions.

Is it alright for the government to censor political opinions?

Is it reasonable to lock people up over their opinions?

Is it fair to have state control over what constitutes acceptable history, to impose limits upon what the unwashed masses should be allowed to know, the ultimate form of political correctness?


Who benefits from belief in nationalism? Who stands to gain? Who inculcates those opinions into the youth?

Why do you hold the beliefs that you do, who stands to gain from you holding those beliefs?

Are those beliefs worth challenging?
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:33 AM   #55
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Originally posted by Irvine511




we all care about the death toll, and the donation total. the world is behind your people as they respond to this unspeakable tragedy.

but to show up, toss around a few insults, and then say, "yeah, i don't care what you think," really isn't doing much to bolster the credibility of your nationalism.

i'd love to hear more from you. i am very curious about your perspective on issues. i won't attack you, but i will challenge you.

but if you don't want to participate, that's fine.
Okay, I only ask you one question, in Yuan dynasty, it's the Mongolian rule China, and in Qing dynasty, it's the Man ethic group. Can you help me to define the nationalism for the two dynasty?

May be you can try to explain why there are no such thing called "pure Chinese", 80% of the Chinese people are partically Mongolian?
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:46 AM   #56
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
This isn't an issue of race, it is an issue of individual liberties. We are speaking past each other. I have an antipathy towards the Chinese state that is not born out of any negativity to the Chinese people.

The perspective that you convey is one that seems to tow the party line, it seems either willfully naive or well calculated and I do not think it is untoward to challenge those assumptions.

Is it alright for the government to censor political opinions?

Is it reasonable to lock people up over their opinions?

Is it fair to have state control over what constitutes acceptable history, to impose limits upon what the unwashed masses should be allowed to know, the ultimate form of political correctness?


Who benefits from belief in nationalism? Who stands to gain? Who inculcates those opinions into the youth?

Why do you hold the beliefs that you do, who stands to gain from you holding those beliefs?

Are those beliefs worth challenging?


Hope this picture can help you understand the culture difference. This is one page from a set of picture done by a media student in Germany, to explain the general culture difference between China and Germany.

The blue side is for Germany, and the red side is for China.
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Old 05-16-2008, 10:51 AM   #57
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Middle classes destroy that excuse, even though they only make up a fraction of the very large and hard to govern population.
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Old 05-16-2008, 11:00 AM   #58
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Middle classes destroy that excuse, even though they only make up a fraction of the very large and hard to govern population.
hehe, if you are in Melbourne, you surely have heard about that pro-China demonstration in April right? Australia government charge international student two times more than the local student, and the cost for doing a master degree is reaching $10,000 per semester. Do you think these students are from poor families in China?
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Old 05-16-2008, 11:03 AM   #59
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Originally posted by butter7


Okay, I only ask you one question, in Yuan dynasty, it's the Mongolian rule China, and in Qing dynasty, it's the Man ethic group. Can you help me to define the nationalism for the two dynasty?

May be you can try to explain why there are no such thing called "pure Chinese", 80% of the Chinese people are partically Mongolian?


i don't even understand where the question is in these various statements.

you're the one who brought up "nationalism." why don't you help us understand how the Chinese understand the term and how it is used in everyday speech and in a modern context.
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Old 05-16-2008, 11:08 AM   #60
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Originally posted by Irvine511




i don't even understand where the question is in these various statements.

you're the one who brought up "nationalism." why don't you help us understand how the Chinese understand the term and how it is used in everyday speech and in a modern context.
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If you mean the idea of having God punish innocent people with natural disasters for the crimes of their government then yes, it is immature and stupid.

Obsequious admiration of government and nationalism is at least as ugly.

I am not a Christian.
This is the first post that used the word "nationalism" in discussion in this thread. I had no idea what the relationship between the earthquake with nationalism either. May be the original owner of the post could give you a better explaination?
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