children: to have, or have not ...

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Irvine511

Blue Crack Supplier
Joined
Dec 4, 2003
Messages
34,521
Location
the West Coast
there was an interesting article in this week's newsweek about the well-documented lowered birthrate in most Western (and some advanced) Asian countries. i thought there were some interesting points brought out in the article:


[q]The latest surge in childlessness does not follow historic patterns. For centuries in Western Europe, it was not unusual for a quarter of women to remain childless—a higher rate than in any country today. (In fact, demographers say it was the family-happy 1950s and '60s that defied the historical norm.) But in the past, childlessness was usually the product of poverty or upheaval, of missing men in times of war; infertility strikes 3 percent of couples at most. Today the decision to have—or not have—a child is the result of a complex combination of factors, including relationships, career opportunities, lifestyle and economics.

The new normalcy of childlessness affects all social classes, not just the stereotypical urban slackers or DINKs (double-income-no-kids). Katy Hoffmann, a 37-year-old hairstylist in the village of Friesack, an hour west of Berlin, says, "Even when I was a little girl I knew deep inside I didn't want children." Growing up in communist East Germany, the pressure was intense to marry and get pregnant by the age of 18, not least to qualify for a state-assigned flat. With the fall of the wall came the freedom to choose her life. Her husband, Lars, a 39-year-old firefighter, says he's long been indifferent to kids as well. "At the station the guys with kids tell us childless guys we should do our duty so that we Germans don't die out," he says. "But if I look at all the unemployment today, I'd say a little [population] shrinking couldn't hurt."

And while child-free households have long been common in the big cities of America and Western Europe, they're fast gaining acceptability in more-traditional rural societies as well. Only a few decades ago, Southern European countries like Italy, Greece and Spain were synonymous with fruitful families and tight knit clans— and their social ostracism of those who didn't fit the mold. Now those three countries are tied for Europe's lowest birthrate. Today close to a quarter of all 40-year-old Italian women expect to remain childless.

In some cases childlessness among women can be seen as a quiet form of protest. In Japan, which is in the midst of a child-free revolution, support for working mothers is almost non-existent (though recently that's begun to change). Child care is expensive, men don't help out, and some companies strongly discourage mothers from returning to work. No wonder women there think it's no coincidence that the Japanese word for "child" is pronounced the same way as "lonely." "Children are adorable, but in Japan it's career or child," says Kaori Haishi, author of "Reasons for Not Having a Baby." It's not just women who are opting out of parenthood; according to a recent study, Japanese men are even less inclined to marry or want a child. Their motivations, though, may have more to do with economic factors. Experts point to growing job insecurity and concern about the country's economic direction as driving forces for men's reluctance to raise a family.

At the same time, around the world it's mostly men who are at the head of a growing backlash against the childless. Politicians and religious leaders warn darkly of an "epidemic" of childlessness that saps the moral fiber of nations; they blame the child-free for impending population decline, the collapse of pension systems and even the rise in immigration. In Japan, commentators have identified the "parasite single" who lives off society instead of doing his duty to start a family.

In Germany, where the childless rate is the highest in the world, at 25 percent, the best-seller lists have been full of tomes forecasting demographic doomsday. In "Minimum," the conservative commentator Frank Schirrmacher describes a "spiral of childlessness," where a declining population becomes ever more reluctant to have kids. Media reports have stigmatized the "cold career woman"—one such recent article came with mug shots of childless female celebs—accusing them of placing their jobs before kids. Never mind that Germany trails its neighbors in the availability of child care, or the amount of time men spend helping around the house.

From Germany to Russia, there is increasing talk of sanctions against the childless. In Slovakia, a leading adviser on the government's Strategic Council on Economic Development proposed in March to replace an unpopular payroll tax with a levy on all childless Slovaks between the ages of 25 and 50. In Russia, where the birthrate has dropped from 2.3 in the 1980s to 1.3 today, a powerful business lobby has called for an income-tax surcharge on childless couples. In Germany, economists and politicians have demanded that public pensions for the childless be slashed by up to 50 percent—never mind that such pensions were invented as an alternative to senior citizens' having to depend on their offspring. These moves resonate favorably with voters and the media. Since a large majority of people in all countries still do have children, critics say such measures in effect serve as middle-class tax breaks in the guise of social policy.

In any case, there is no reason to believe that sanctions against the childless will do much to raise the birthrate. Germany, for instance, already spends more than any other country on family subsidies, and has the world's second-highest taxes on childless singles (after Belgium). Yet that hasn't done a thing to boost the birthrate. In fact, critics and demographers say that targeting the childless is misguided. "You can't emphasize enough that childlessness is not the reason for low birthrates," the LSE's Hakim says. Instead, study after study shows that the real culprit is a sharp drop in family size; in low-birthrate countries, those who do have children are just having one or two at most, instead of three or four. In Italy and Japan, among the 80 percent or so of women who do still have children, the one-child mini family has become the new social norm. This, too, is a modern lifestyle choice. "It's the minimal family that lets you off the hook from parents and social expectations, but exacts the least burden on your lifestyle," sociologist Hakim says.

[/q]



so what do we think?

is it fair to sanction those without children? conversely, is it "fair" to reward those who do have children? is it in society's interests to stigmatize those who choose to remain childless? what will happen to society in the long run if a one-child family becomes the norm? is this indicative of societies filled with people who refuse to change their lifestyles, or are people simply giving more thought to what it means to be a parent and choosing to opt out if they feel as if they cannot be a good parent? are these people setting themselves up for a very lonely old age?
 
You should not sanction people who don't have children because what is the alternative here? For them to have an unwanted child in order to escape financial penalties? That sounds so backwards to me.

Also, how do you determine who is "electing" not to have children for various reasons vs. who can't? Everyone has to submit medical documentation in order to escape this tax? Right now every one of us could go and pay for genetic sequencing and find something in our genes which could theoretically cause us to not want to have a child. Bam! Easy solution and a way out of this stupid tax.

As far as choosing not to have children - it's a pretty common phenomenon among my peers. To me, it mostly seems to exist because we (especially women) today have choices we did not have in previous times. My Mom has often said to me that I can choose to live any kind of life I wish, that I don't have to get married or have kids or contribute to church bake sales. When she was growing up in the 50s and 60s, this was not the case. You did not buck the trend unless you wanted to live on the fringes of society. And she has also said to me that if she and her friends are being honest, many of them would choose a different life had they had a chance to do it over again.
 
Irvine511 said:
so what do we think?

is it fair to sanction those without children? [/B]
Hell no!

conversely, is it "fair" to reward those who do have children? [/B]
Hell no! Raise their taxes to pay for a greater share of school costs!

is it in society's interests to stigmatize those who choose to remain childless? [/B]
Should we be stigmatizing anbody?

what will happen to society in the long run if a one-child family becomes the norm? [/B]
Lower population, better quality of life, less pollution......

is this indicative of societies filled with people who refuse to change their lifestyles, or are people simply giving more thought to what it means to be a parent and choosing to opt out if they feel as if they cannot be a good parent? [/B]
Who can afford to raise a child these days. With high divorce rates, who wants to be a single parent of be somebody elses paycheck?

are these people setting themselves up for a very lonely old age? [/B]
Lots of lonely old people out there with plenty of family.
 
is it fair to sanction those without children?
No. The implication that there's some kind of obligation to the state to have children is creepy. And no one's going to be fooled into thinking they'd save money by having children anyhow, so what's the point?
conversely, is it "fair" to reward those who do have children?
What's a "reward"? Public schools, which made most of our educations possible? Three months max of (unpaid, sleepless) maternity leave, like we get here in the US? EITCs, which max out at $4400 for a 2-child household on a $15K income (you can't claim more than 2 kids towards it) then phase down to $0 as household income reaches $35K? These are necessary measures to protect children from poverty and mothers from workplace discrimination, IMO.

There are reasonable limits of course, but supporting childrearing is in the longterm best interests of society; none of us would be here without it after all, and it's not like children are some kind of luxury item that people who choose to have them "indulge" themselves with. You don't own them or control their destinies, you can't return them if you're dissatisfied, they exert tremendous drains on time and money...it's not like buying a yacht or investing in real estate or something.
is it in society's interests to stigmatize those who choose to remain childless?
No, though short of prying questions from nosy relatives and wistful-envious grumbling from friends and coworkers with kids, I'm not sure how much said stigma really adds up to, or if it's any worse than the constant lectures parents get about all the things they're doing wrong.
what will happen to society in the long run if a one-child family becomes the norm?
That depends on which society you're talking about and what its likely socioeconomic trajectory is.
is this indicative of societies filled with people who refuse to change their lifestyles, or are people simply giving more thought to what it means to be a parent and choosing to opt out if they feel as if they cannot be a good parent?
Neither probably. Basically, either the potential pros outweigh the potential cons for you or they don't; no need to moralize it. It certainly will put a crimp or perhaps worse in your lifestyles, there's no two ways about that; on the other hand, there's no such thing as a perfect parent, any more than there is a perfect spouse, and the truly awful ones generally lack the self-insight to recognize that in themselves anyway.

The idea that becoming a parent is the sine qua non of a meaningfully productive life is certainly an assumption worth questioning; on the other hand, so is the idea that "maximum" professional achievement is the same.
are these people setting themselves up for a very lonely old age?
Some will be lonely, some won't, depending on what kinds of social support networks they partake of and how reliable these networks are; but then the same goes for parents--who knows whether your children would be willing or able to care for you themselves. There are no guarantees with children, not ever.



You didn't quote this part, but I think the article is probably on target with the theory that declining family size has more to do with waiting until later to marry and start families than anything else.
 
Last edited:
You know, society has expended an awful lot of effort trying to discourage teenage pregnancy by highlighting all the disadvantages of having children. Perhaps once these teens become adults, they still remember how "disadvantageous" it is to have children.

Melon
 
I don't plan on having children myself...I've already received a lot of criticism for it even from my own family (which is somewhat understandable because my parents just want a ton of grandkids...but that can be left up to my sister who already has a daughter).
 
I ask in all honesty and sincerity, what is the best reason to have kids that is not a selfish one?

It's just one of my inner conflicts.
I do want kids but find it hard to justify bringing them into a world that isn't exactly wonderful. I find most of my reasons would just be selfish. Maybe it's not selfish at all, just asking for a different perspective.
 
What's wrong with selfish reason, your genetic material should get passed down at least once over (so at least 2 kids).
 
This is such an individual choice. I cannot stand articles which try to discuss social trends or reasons why we do or do not have children. Slightly off topic..
 
But they are so very relevent, like the connections between birthrate and rate of religious belief and socioeconomic status.
 
U2DMfan said:
I do want kids but find it hard to justify bringing them into a world that isn't exactly wonderful. I find most of my reasons would just be selfish.
I don't know that there's any reason one could appeal to--either for or against having children--that would absolutely rule out the possibility of selfish interests, and/or arrogant presumptions about other people. I could tell you in all conscious sincerety that I mean to give something back to the world by bringing into it--and, far more importantly, raising my children to be--people who will work for good within it, but it's not like I can prove to you that my real desire isn't to flatter my ego by vainly attempting to create some sort of idealized version(s) of myself. Likewise, you might tell me in all sincerity that you don't think you'd make a worthy parent due to whatever personal weaknesses, but that doesn't prove that what you really wish to avoid isn't taking responsibility for anyone besides yourself. The overpopulation rationale in practice, particularly when made by citizens of the developed world, winds up being more of an excuse for continued excessive consumption and reckless resource exploitation than anything else. I know for a fact from having helped conduct "ecological footprint" surveys for a local environmental group that our household produces less trash and uses less fuel, electricity and water than most of our childless neighbors do. In the big picture, reduced average family size is part of the solution to this, but only part.

The world isn't an ideal place to bring up children, never has been and never will be.
Angela Harlem said:
This is such an individual choice. I cannot stand articles which try to discuss social trends or reasons why we do or do not have children. Slightly off topic..
I'm inclined to agree...too often it tends to provoke hypermoralizing and chauvinism from both sides.
A_Wanderer said:
What's wrong with selfish reason, your genetic material should get passed down at least once over (so at least 2 kids).
I'm guessing this is not the way you intend to propose the venture to your prospective childrens' mother. :wink:
 
Last edited:
U2DMfan said:
I ask in all honesty and sincerity, what is the best reason to have kids that is not a selfish one?
I don't know...while the perception may be that people have children for selfish reasons, from my experience, once you have a child, the last thing you can be is selfish. As a parent you have to put the child first (or certainly you should) and selfishness basically goes out the window. There's a lot of things that I'd have like to do and my wife would have liked to do over the past 2 years that we have skipped because of our son.

I don't think that anything I do for my child is selfish, I do things cause I want whats best for him, want him to have a healthy happy life.
 
Hewson said:
I don't know...while the perception may be that people have children for selfish reasons, from my experience, once you have a child, the last thing you can be is selfish. As a parent you have to put the child first (or certainly you should) and selfishness basically goes out the window. There's a lot of things that I'd have like to do and my wife would have liked to do over the past 2 years that we have skipped because of our son.


That's true if you are a good parent....
 
one of the reasons i started this thread was because i had brunch with one of my best friends and his wife on sunday. she got pregnant almost immediately after their wedding in december (she swears it was an accident, the women in our group of friends tend to be much more suspicious of her than the men are, but anyway ...) and she's having twins and has been on bed rest for the past 6 weeks. feeling badly for her, and her husband who just started at a top law firm and is working ungodly hours, Memphis and i showed up on sunday with french toast, fruit salad, bacon, juice, coffee, and freshly whipped cream (none of that Redi-Whip crap).

ALL they could talk about were the babies. what they were buying for the babies. what things cost. this car seat vs. that car seat. this car vs. that car. houses with yards. sonograms. etc.

and that was nice. we wanted to hear about the babies. it's obviously a seismic event in their lives, they're still in shock, and they probably are sick of just talking to each other about it. but after a while it was kind of like ... oh, come on. isn't there something else we can talk about, some subject in which we can participate? where did the two of you go?

and on one level, i surely understand. i do. and i wanted to give them whatever they needed, and what they needed to do (apparently) was to talk about what they were preparing themselves for. but i can see this all leading somewhere. my landlord talks about how his business partner just had children, and he talks in mystical terms about his kids, "oh man, you don't know until you have them," "your life totally changes, you have no idea," etc.

and, yes, i can understand that too, but the problems i start to is when birthing a child suddenly gives you access to some ancient wisdom, some kind of revelation, some aspect of personhood that seems to automatically accord a greater sense of worth to you than your childless peers.

and, while it hasn't happened yet and perhaps i'm yet to be pleasantly surprised, i can completely see my aforementioned friends heading down this path. "oh, we had no idea" "oh, you have no idea" "oh, what i now know," etc. there's a sense of personal aggrandizement that i see associated with some people when they become parents. it's less, "i have a daugher," and more "I AM A PARENT! I AM SOMEBODY!" i also see this reflected in some of the parents i've had to deal with as a teacher and as a coach, parents who think their job is the be all end of of their child's life and their willingness to intercede on behalf of a child to what i thought to be an unhealthy degree where their child wasn't being equipped to deal with problems and conflicts on their own because THE PARENT had to step in and right the various wrongs being done unto their child.

so, i do see a degree of ... not selishness, exactly, but the using of the status of parenthood to inflate one's self, and then to look down upon (while always giving the whole, "oh, it's so nice that you can go out for a glass of wine and dinner on a Thursday, oh how i envy you, but Polly has her Gymboree in the evenings") those that choose not to have children, the implication being, "how selfish of you to want to have a glass of wine more than you want a child."

or cannot have children. or are not even allowed to be married.

and not all parents do this. the ones that impress me are the ones who do not dote, who do not completely reconstitute their sense of self in relation to their children and who do not draw their self-esteem based upon their children. the are mothers. they are people with children. but this isn't the self-absorbed, Dr. Laura-ish, "I am my child's mother" which is really selfishness wrapped up in sanctimony.

so i don't know where this has taken me, if anywhere, but i thought i'd share.
 
Last edited:
My friends who have had children generally drifted away from me. Nearly all of our very close friends do not have children. In our close group, which has almost all coupled off, only one couple has children. They don't let their children interfere with their lives; they take them camping, to openings, (some) parties, and nearly every other place. When they can't take the kids, only one of them will attend, usually the dad. The mom is ok with staying home. If she weren't, she'd let the dad know and he'd stay home.

So yeah, babies can completely change the lives of the friends of the parents, and not always for the best. :shrug:
 
I chose not to have kids because I've seen too many situations where so-called, unplanned, pregnancies or babies were used as weapons to control others, get attention or money.
 
i also work in a profession that has many, many women in positions of power, and many, many of them do not have children. or have one child, usually in their late 30s.
 
I was one who observed everyone around me having kids rather young (i was 25) and felt "left out" and just let it happen; I've since realized (hindsight and all that, blah, blah) it's not all it's cracked out to be and find myself frequently thinking, "now if I were childless..." I do envy my friends' freedom but do NOT act as if they're missing out on something--HA! they're lucky if they choose to remain childless.
 
irvine, the arrogance you described is definitely on both sides here. Not sure if you agree that it is arrogance, but I think it is. I know people, we all do, who are as you described, who believe that they have reached some higher level of consciousness, who've finally found a reason for living. They are the people who piss everyone off. They're as annoying as people who talk about their incomes or the value of their possessions. No one really cares about the cost of someone else's house (unless it is to smile outwardly while inwardly thinking 'you are an idiot' because it was grossly inflated) and no one gives much of a shit about what having children does to someone. We will think 'good for you' and then put it right out of our minds if the person allows you.

Alternatively, those who whine that having children is not the ultimate path to personal enlightenment are also bloody annoying. It reminds me of what it must be like for Christians who hear people like me say "pfft, I dont need religion to find true happiness and fulfillment". I truly believe that I dont. But I am only, and can only ever, talk about me and my happiness. If someone needs God or children or no children or an alter of satan to find true happiness, what interest and business is it of mine? I frankly dont care. I personally think children are the best thing to ever happen to me. I hope I dont ever come across as one of the aforementioned we both described. I also dont want to listen to my latter mentioned. They can take their hoity contempt of people with children and shove it. I'm no more interested in their lack of interest in having children than they are in my fullfilment in having them. For either 'side' to continue talking about it only irritates and gets up the nose of the other. This is why I say keep it personal.

:up:
 
Angela Harlem said:



i fully agree that having children is revelatory for some people. that it is the key to their happiness.

i just don't think they know that it would be the key to my happiness.



(though it might be, i'm fully open to the possibility)



and, as relates to the original article, i think it's attitudes like the ones we've highlighted that often pressure the wrong people into becoming parents, and then what happens when the clouds never do part and the seal never is broken and you never do come out of Plato's cave?

and you're stuck with a crying, shitting disappointment.

but no anti-depressants for you! vitamins for all that, sez Tom Cruise.
 
Irvine511 said:


and you're stuck with a crying, shitting disappointment.



:lol:


Sometimes, I ask myself if I really want to bring a kid into this world. I always tend to lean towards "yes", because a big part of me believes this is our purpose--the creation of something amazing that can ultimately enrich one's life, and shed light on what's truly important beyond the muck of modern living.

While it wouldn't be the key to my happiness, I can envision a child adding to it. It could, of course, turn out to be a "shitting disappointment", but disappointment is relative; there can be a lot of beauty in not measuring up to a perceived standard.

All kids have the potential to change the world as we know it, and that's a very good thing on a planet where so many are jaded by their fears.
 
4EVRU2[/i] [B]A bit of selfishness is necessary though said:
In our close group, which has almost all coupled off, only one couple has children. They don't let their children interfere with their lives; they take them camping, to openings, (some) parties, and nearly every other place. When they can't take the kids, only one of them will attend, usually the dad. The mom is ok with staying home. If she weren't, she'd let the dad know and he'd stay home.

Yes you must continue to live your own lives as much as possible, but the child, especially at a very young age, needs to be priority. We take my son (age 2) with us to restaurants and numerous other places, but obviously some places are not appropriate. So we have significantly cut back on trips to the movie theater as compared with our pre-child days. And as Martha states, sometimes one parent must sacrifice so the other can enjoy themselves (I saw 6 U2 shows last year, the wife attended only 2 of them with me when it was convenient to get a baby sitter).
When my son is old enough, I plan to take him to concerts if he is interested.
 
Irvine, I could have written the same post. I can understand that having children is a huge undertaking and takes up a huge amount of time and energy. And I give a great deal of credit to parents who are raising good, decent kids. However, I have found far too many parents, especially moms, have their whole lives revolve around their kids and very little else matters. Women have so many options these days, yet these moms can’t talk about anything that doesn’t relate to their own children-their children’s soccer games, their children’s school teachers, their children’s awards and blue ribbons. It’s like they allow themselves to be sucked into the realm of “mommy.” These are the types of women whose discussion forum names go along the lines of “Kaylee’s Mommy” or “Mom of 5.” These are the type of women who will interrupt an important conversation to tell you something inane about their children. Several years ago, a co-worker was asking me how things were going with the school newspaper, and before I could give her the scoop, another co-worker butted in to tell us that she started shopping for kids’ Christmas gifts. Excuse me? And the funny thing is, I don’t recall my mom and her friends going on and on about their children. They discussed books, movies, current events, happenings in the neighborhood, etc. I can remember a local newspaper article where the reporter asked several people what they thought of an upcoming mayoral election. One mom answered, “I’m so busy being a mom; I don’t even know who is running?” WTF? I bet Susan B. Anthony is rolling her grave. And I know from the sharp, smart, caring folks at this board, you can be a parent and still know what’s going on and even more importantly, care about what’s going on. This woman was just a placenta-brained twit whose status as a mommy gave her carte blanché to opt out of her duty as a citizen. I wanted to barf.

And, like you, Irvine, I’ve noticed a lot of people using their status of parenthood to elevate themselves as all knowing and powerful. They are simply on a higher plane of spiritual development than us lowly and selfish childless folks. A few years ago I read a book called, “Mother Leads Best.” I thought the author would simply discuss how childrearing helped her in the corporate realm. However, she just couldn’t refrain in getting her digs in women who do not have children (men without children remained unscathed). She advised young women to have children or they’d be perceived as uncaring and irresponsible. I’ve chosen not to have children and I am hardly uncaring and irresponsible. She also called women without children “dragon ladies.” And the signs of being a dragon lady? Dressing stylishly and keeping up with one’s industry.

I hope I haven’t pissed anyone off with my post. But I really needed to get this off my chest.

And when Dr. Laura says, “I’m my kids’ mom” all she’s doing is referring to herself three times in one sentence.
 
Back
Top Bottom