children: to have, or have not ... - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-01-2006, 10:02 AM   #46
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,473
Local Time: 03:42 AM
ironically, my friends had the babies last night.

twin girls. both healthy and just over 4lbs.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 09-01-2006, 10:08 AM   #47
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
sulawesigirl4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,416
Local Time: 03:42 AM
melon, I think you bring up an important point. Most of this fear and hand-wringing over low birth rates aren't because the world is in danger of under-population (hardly!) but because whites are reproducing in lower numbers than non-whites. Quite frankly, in a probably childish and perverse way, I look forward to having children with my black boyfriend if only to muddy up the gene pool even more.

Another thought I had when reading the original article was that any kind of "punishment" of childless people (economic or otherwise) is destined to just bring more meddling in people's private lives. How do you determine who is willfully childless and who is childless because of medical reasons. Is that the government's job to determine and control? Would a childless couple have to submit to medical testing in order to get out of the tax penalty? The whole idea is just ludicrous and actually really scary, imho.
__________________

__________________
"I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me." - Bono

sulawesigirl4 is offline  
Old 09-01-2006, 11:18 AM   #48
Refugee
 
Muggsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: I live in colombia, with a box of watercolors and butterflies in my tummy
Posts: 2,033
Local Time: 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


The thing is, non-white populations are generally having plenty of children, so if we're afraid of the extinction of the human race, it's not likely going to happen. But that's what scared racist groups, and that's why they started this kick condemning childless (white) couples; it's because they feel increasingly threatened by brown people.

Melon
Now that I'm reading this I feel the urge to reproduce myself and make this world even more brown!
__________________
Muggsy is offline  
Old 09-01-2006, 11:53 AM   #49
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 09:42 AM
Quote:
Many pregnant women 'unprepared'

BBC, Aug. 31, 2006

One in five pregnant women say they do not feel "emotionally ready" to have a baby, a survey has revealed. The poll of 1,100 women found many women were surprised at the physical and emotional demands of pregnancy. Half felt under pressure to be "perfect", and 44% said those around them felt the need to pass on "tips"...67% felt more exhausted than expected during pregnancy, and 58% felt more emotional. Over half said they felt more in need of reassurance than they expected, but 29% felt confused by all the conflicting advice they read. A third said they had received personal comments that upset them, such as being told about other people's pregnancy and birth "horror stories".

Just over a quarter (27%) said they were weighed down by relationship or financial pressures. And 10% of pregnant women felt pressure from friends who said they had "lost" them socially. The poll also found that 21% felt pressure from media coverage of celebrities who appeared to lose all their pregnancy weight straight away...One woman said: "People find it entirely acceptable to pass comment about my body shape whilst I am pregnant - the size of my hips, the weight I'm carrying, the size and position of my bump. They would never dream of being so direct and rude if I wasn't pregnant."

Experts said more services should be available to support pregnant women and to stop them feeling so isolated. Dr Linda Papadopolous...said: "[These] statistics...show just how little pregnant women are being supported through their pregnancy - and how this is detrimentally affecting them, both mentally and physically...It's evident that the mounting pressure on women to remain perfect throughout pregnancy and motherhood is huge. This problem needs to be addressed - women mustn't be left feeling so isolated."
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 09-01-2006, 01:57 PM   #50
War Child
 
Devlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 922
Local Time: 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
You know, society has expended an awful lot of effort trying to discourage teenage pregnancy by highlighting all the disadvantages of having children. Perhaps once these teens become adults, they still remember how "disadvantageous" it is to have children.

Melon
Melon! Two Words: Birth Video.

Not even for Larry Mullen would I have a child. Though I'd be soreley tempted if he were charming enough.

ON choosing not to have children:

I am rather like Adam on that score. Don't like 'em, don't want 'em, keep 'em away from me.

I mean, I have a vague, distant sort of affection for my nieces and nephews and various other children I know personally. But, to be honest, I barely know the names of my nieces and nephews, and I cannot for the life of me remember ages or which is which. Sad, isn't it?

The only kid I even know well is my now..17 (I think!) year old cousin, and I didn't even bother with him much until he was old enough to roughhouse with.
__________________
Devlin is offline  
Old 09-01-2006, 07:15 PM   #51
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
melon, I think you bring up an important point. Most of this fear and hand-wringing over low birth rates aren't because the world is in danger of under-population (hardly!) but because whites are reproducing in lower numbers than non-whites. Quite frankly, in a probably childish and perverse way, I look forward to having children with my black boyfriend if only to muddy up the gene pool even more.
Not entirely racism, in cases where there is common culture the shift in racial demographic is no barrier whatsoever but the issue is that there will be a dramatic cultural shift in western countries if you have Muslim minorities becoming large minorities over the next 50 years to majorities over the next century that do not have any interest to integrate, reading stories where a majority of British Muslims (or Muslims who live in Britain) want to see Sharia be introduced and for blasphemy to be made a crime is worrying, especially when it's not the immigrants rather the second and third generation who embrace stricter religious views as a means of identity.

If (and hopefully not) we see a growing influence on the political landscape by a devoutly religious minority then it will become more expedient to pander to them and ebb away certain freedoms for votes, if it ever came to a stage of having majority of believers who have no interests in changing for society then it would be fucked - I am a fan of freedom of religion, universal rights and a wide array of liberties - all of which get threatened by the religious. The world is better off Godless.

This argument is irrelevent to America except for the examples of seeing religious majority areas voting in for things that violate the constitution such as prophibition, those 10 commandments and creationism in schools.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 09-02-2006, 12:00 AM   #52
The Fly
 
Sylvia127's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 40
Local Time: 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Devlin


Melon! Two Words: Birth Video.

Not even for Larry Mullen would I have a child. Though I'd be soreley tempted if he were charming enough.

ON choosing not to have children:

I am rather like Adam on that score. Don't like 'em, don't want 'em, keep 'em away from me.

I mean, I have a vague, distant sort of affection for my nieces and nephews and various other children I know personally. But, to be honest, I barely know the names of my nieces and nephews, and I cannot for the life of me remember ages or which is which. Sad, isn't it?

The only kid I even know well is my now..17 (I think!) year old cousin, and I didn't even bother with him much until he was old enough to roughhouse with.
Birth Video

I saw that same video! Still makes me shudder.
I am not contributing to the over-population of the planet-but yeah-my cousins have had enough children to make up for me-I do know their names, some birthdays, not all. Enjoy them...but send them home kind of thing.
__________________
Sylvia127 is offline  
Old 09-02-2006, 10:48 AM   #53
Refugee
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,415
Local Time: 08:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Devlin
I am rather like Adam on that score. Don't like 'em, don't want 'em, keep 'em away from me.
Reason 2538 for me to like Adam.

Remember when President Bush vetoed the stem cell bill and surrounded himself with "snowflake babies." Well, the only thing these kids had in common with snowflakes was they were all white.

Yes, I do read thinly-veiled racism or bigotry in these "people aren't having enough babies" articles. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

And apparently, according to this woman, people don't have kids because they don't want to grow up. Only by having children, are we truly mature. Barf.
http://www.aish.com/societyWork/soci...nt_Grow_Up.asp

The "Peter Pan Syndrome" gets pushed to frightening extremes.

I frequently meet bachelors in their mid-40's who are thinking that maybe it is time to get married and settle down ... maybe.

I frequently meet men and women in their late 20's who have run out of graduate school options -- how many degrees can you collect? -- who have traveled the world and who are thinking that maybe it's time to pursue a career and earn an income ... maybe.

And I frequently meet women in their late 30's who think that maybe it's time to have a child ... maybe.

They are suffering from what I call "The Peter Pan Syndrome" -- the idealization of perpetual childhood and the refusal to grow up.

In a society governed by no fixed rules, choosing "adulthood" is left to the whims and caprices of the individual. And many people put that choice off indefinitely. In fact, some people put it off forever. Sometimes they even disguise it as an intellectual theory. That's when it's really frightening.

CHEATING THE CHILDLESS?

I recently saw a book profiled in the New York Review of Books, "The Baby Boon: How Family-Friendly America Cheats the Childless" by Elinor Burkett, which takes up the "cause" of those who choose to be childless.

It's surprising that people would affirmatively elect not to experience life's most intense love and pleasure. It reminded me of the famous Newsweek cover at the height of yuppiedom: A young couple was shown fondling their wine collection. "These are our children" was the message they conveyed.

It's true the wine bottles don't talk back. They don't run hysterically up the stairs in a fit of adolescent pique. But they also don't smile, give to others, engage you in meaningful conversations, promote important values in the world.

"The Baby Boon" is not content to stop there. Ms. Burkett is outraged by child-based benefits available to parents that aren't available to non-parents. (Does anyone seriously think that society's interest in dogs, goldfish and clean apartments is comparable to its interest in the welfare of children?) But what she really wants is a completely childfree existence.

Ms. Burkett wants adult-only shopping, dining and swimming. She wants children banned from supermarkets at certain hours. Nothing should get between her and her Cheerios. (But I'm showing my pro-child bias; what cereal does the childfree adult prefer?)

The reviewer of the book, with no small amount of irony, points out that no less an "elevated" culture that the Germans have a word for those who do not like children -- "kinderfeindlichkeit." I think sad and lonely would be much simpler.

TRUE MEANING OF RESPONSIBILITY

Jewish law states that you can't be a judge if you don't have children. Only through our children do we learn real compassion. (Anyone who's spent a few hours in the emergency room with a sick child can testify to this!) Only through our children do we become full adults and learn the true meaning of responsibility. (I feel deeply for those couples who desperately want to have children but cannot.)

Children have so much to learn from adults of all ages. Adults, and particularly the elderly, find their lives enriched by the presence of children. Children inspire hope and optimism. They speak of the future. There is nothing like the enthusiasm of the young to ward off the depression of old age.

Of course, there are times when I'd like a little peace and quiet -- like between 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. -- and an occasional dinner without my children and time alone with my husband is also nice. But if I go to a restaurant where there are children, it doesn't destroy my evening.

When people ask us why we chose to have large family, my husband responds "Would you be satisfied with one Rembrandt if you could have two?" All our human desires to create, love and find meaning in our lives are best expressed through building the next generation.

Can the author be serious in suggesting that staying childless has given her a better life? Is there any building, business or project that will make a more significant impact on the world? Will her life be more meaningful because she can buy cornflakes with no children in sight?

PETER PAN SYNDROME

This is the Peter Pan syndrome taken to its most logical extreme.

Why this desire to never grow up?

I think it's because we mistakenly believe that there is greater pleasure available in a carefree life than in one of obligations. Club Med isn't about responsibilities. Retirement isn't about responsibilities. We are told to live for vacations, weekends, retirement and a good bottle of beer.

The idealism of childhood is further perpetuated by the advertising industry that plays on our nostalgia for a time when everything came easily. (Was it really like that?) There are businesses now to sell you every toy you remember from your youth. There are web sites that will find for you every candy bar you remember from your past. But is that really the taste you want now? And does it taste the same?

The Jewish perspective is that responsibilities are not a burden but a pleasure, that only through hard work do we experience true satisfaction. It's not the flavor of childhood we really want. It's the sweet taste of living up to obligations, of adhering to our commitments.

Yes, going to work can be a pain. But it's an accomplishment. And there is tremendous pleasure in that accomplishment. Marriage can be effortful -- more effortful than being single -- but the rewards are greater as well. Only through the effort do we achieve the intimacy and oneness that we all desire and cherish. Children are a huge responsibility -- you'll be much more tired physically and emotionally with them than without them -- but one smile eases a lot of pain, one beautiful soul is worth all the effort and more. (That was my mantra last week when seven of my beautiful souls had the stomach flu all at once in the middle of the night!)

With responsibility comes joy; not just joy in the achievement but joy in knowing you lived up to your responsibilities.

I didn't say it's not difficult. It is. But the rewards of accomplishment are a lot more fulfilling than the perks of independence.

Sure there are times that I wish I could come home to someone else placing dinner on the table with homemade cookies at my reach. And then I snap out of it, because I don't really want that.

I want to make my own choices. I want to be able to take pleasure in my successes and grow from my failures. And I want to taste the satisfaction of knowing that I exerted myself in trying to build a meaningful life.

Let's send Peter Pan back to NeverNeverLand.

Author Biography:
Emuna Braverman has a law degree from the University of Toronto and a Masters in Psychology from Pepperdine University. She lives with her husband and nine children in Los Angeles where they both work for Aish HaTorah. When she isn't writing for the internet or taking care of her family, Emuna teaches classes on Judaism, organizes gourmet kosher cooking groups and hosts many shabbos guests.
__________________
Golightly Grrl is offline  
Old 09-02-2006, 11:45 AM   #54
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 04:42 AM
Why would somebody's character and worth be judged based on willingness and ability to have children?

If someone is judged by the willingness to take on responsibility for something other than himself/herself, the ability to love unconditionally, the ability to create a personal community both dependent on and responsible for each other, taking care of those least able to take care of themselves, there are many ways of doing this, including raising children.

Is there a special joy in raising children? I don't know. I don't have any. But I know what it is to place somebody's happiness above my own. I know what it is to sacrifice and to compromise. I know what it feels like to nurse someone back to health and to worry about them. I know what it is to not walk away from commitment.

I won't say right now why I don't have any children. It doesn't matter. But in all the ways that count, I'm a grownup.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 09-02-2006, 12:23 PM   #55
Refugee
 
Muggsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: I live in colombia, with a box of watercolors and butterflies in my tummy
Posts: 2,033
Local Time: 03:42 AM
This lady is talking just from her own happy experience. Certainly she's not considering the increasing number of parents who mistreat their children, neglect them, abuse them, trow them to the streets to beg for money, expose them to disease and starvation, force them to work, abandon them... does A dad who rapes her daughter now better about compasion, just because he is her father?? is having babies that you can't feed a experience of love and intense pleasure???
__________________
Muggsy is offline  
Old 09-02-2006, 01:32 PM   #56
War Child
 
Devlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 922
Local Time: 08:42 AM
Heh. I'm not a grownup. I admit that. Having babies won't help and WILL damage the babies.

Of course, if she wants to pay for their emotional and physical harm, then fine.
__________________
Devlin is offline  
Old 09-02-2006, 04:19 PM   #57
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4

Another thought I had when reading the original article was that any kind of "punishment" of childless people (economic or otherwise) is destined to just bring more meddling in people's private lives. How do you determine who is willfully childless and who is childless because of medical reasons. Is that the government's job to determine and control? Would a childless couple have to submit to medical testing in order to get out of the tax penalty? The whole idea is just ludicrous and actually really scary, imho.
Reminds me of Ceaucescu's Romania *shudder*.....
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 09-02-2006, 06:08 PM   #58
She's the One
 
martha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Orange County and all over the goddamn place
Posts: 42,334
Local Time: 12:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


Reminds me of Ceaucescu's Romania *shudder*.....
That's what I've been thinking about as well.

And the Romanians shot that fucker at dawn one Christmas day.
__________________
martha is offline  
Old 09-02-2006, 07:41 PM   #59
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,557
Local Time: 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by martha


That's what I've been thinking about as well.

And the Romanians shot that fucker at dawn one Christmas day.
....and if I recall correctly, it included raffling off this task among 300 volunteers.
__________________
Liesje is offline  
Old 09-03-2006, 09:25 AM   #60
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 24,974
Local Time: 03:42 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint


If someone is judged by the willingness to take on responsibility for something other than himself/herself, the ability to love unconditionally, the ability to create a personal community both dependent on and responsible for each other, taking care of those least able to take care of themselves, there are many ways of doing this, including raising children.

So true. And it has nothing to do with a "playboy mentality"-the bottom line sort if is, what is the equivalent term for "old maid"-confirmed bachelor? Gee, somehow doesn't have the same demeaning ring to it.Some people actually do still use that term. If you're a woman who isn't married and is childless, well gee you must be some hideously unattractive "loser" or something. Or some selfish career driven person. Did you make that as your life choice or are you just not appealing to men? Granted it is much different than it used to be, but that attitude still exists. Are men who are older and single and have no kids considered to be that way because they're just not hot enough? Maybe in some cases, but as a general rule my experience says no. Of course men have the physical advantage of being able to father children at a much later age.

In my view the most selfish thing is to have kids and/or get married because society and/or your family expects it. Once you are involving another person and kids in that decision, it becomes very selfish to make a huge decision like that for that reason. Just my opinion.

If having kids is a sign of being a full fledged grown up, well that's odd because I know many people who are parents who are quite immature.
__________________

__________________
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com