Charity....From Tax $$$$ or Free Will????
- Thread starter Dreadsox
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Katey said:
hey, if I am out of line...my apologies....I guess it is acceptable to place me a member of the forum in these shoes based on my questions and positions...
perfectly fair and reasonsable....
I appreciate it....makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
FYI If i remember correctly...I was one of the people complaining about the over use of the term in this forum in reference to people comparing Conservative members of the forum in this light as well as Americans in general. So again, my apologies. I was not calling anyone by the name if you reread what I said. In this case it probably was an overreaction, yet, somehow, I am equally offended by the mischaracterization of my questions, the things I have said, and the intent of the thread, in comparison to Auchwitz. There are many reasons why the comparison is particularly offensive to me without getting into it.
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nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
Katey said:
I'm not sure how you can NOT get the implication out of your statement.
FizzingWhizzbees
ONE love, blood, life
It wasn't Katey's statement in the first place. And in any case, the statement talked about those who *watched* trains leaving for Auschwitz. The people who watched it happen weren't necessarily Nazis, they were people who were either unable or unwilling to do anything about what was happening.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
FizzingWhizzbees said:
Cute distinction
NB...let it go....thanks
It is clearly OK to do this to members of the forum.....
ANTI-War people must have supported Saddam and the mass graves they are uncovering....sitting by allowing the sand pits to be filled.
I would never condone a statement like that, nor have I made a statement like that in this forum......but it is fair to make statements like this towards conservatives. It is on the same level.
It is clearly OK to do this to members of the forum.....
ANTI-War people must have supported Saddam and the mass graves they are uncovering....sitting by allowing the sand pits to be filled.
I would never condone a statement like that, nor have I made a statement like that in this forum......but it is fair to make statements like this towards conservatives. It is on the same level.
Blacksword said:
Society, as a whole, is built on slavery. The Roman Empire had slaves of the territories it conquered. Europe, Russia, and parts of Asia had feudalism, which is just a fancy word for "slavery." African tribes had slaves of the tribes they conquered, and, frankly, American slaves would not have been as numerous, had it not been for the zeal of some African tribal leaders to make money off of the people they defeated in battle, nor would American slaves have likely existed, had the Dutch slave trade not started it off.
None of this makes slavery okay, but this isn't exclusively an American issue.
Melon
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
I think Jesus said it best-
Jesus taught that charity and compassion should not be forced, it should be voluntary
.
He also said that our charity and compassion should not be staged and acts of kindness should be real as he recognizes our true intentions..
17-27 17As he was going out into the way, one ran to him, knelt before him, and asked him, ?Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life??
18Jesus said to him, ?Why do you call me good? No one is good except one?God. 19You know the commandments: ?Do not murder,? ?Do not commit adultery,? ?Do not steal,? ?Do not give false testimony,? ?Do not defraud,? ?Honor your father and mother.??
20He said to him, ?Teacher, I have observed all these things from my youth.?
21Jesus looking at him loved him, and said to him, ?One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross.?
22But his face fell at that saying, and he went away sorrowful, for he was one who had great possessions. 23Jesus looked around, and said to his disciples, ?How difficult it is for those who have riches to enter into the Kingdom of God!?
24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answered again, ?Children, how hard is it for those who trust in riches to enter into the Kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through a needle?s eye than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.?
26They were exceedingly astonished, saying to him, ?Then who can be saved??
27Jesus, looking at them, said, ?With men it is impossible, but not with God, for all things are possible with God.?
Jesus taught that charity and compassion should not be forced, it should be voluntary
.He also said that our charity and compassion should not be staged and acts of kindness should be real as he recognizes our true intentions..
17-27 17As he was going out into the way, one ran to him, knelt before him, and asked him, ?Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life??
18Jesus said to him, ?Why do you call me good? No one is good except one?God. 19You know the commandments: ?Do not murder,? ?Do not commit adultery,? ?Do not steal,? ?Do not give false testimony,? ?Do not defraud,? ?Honor your father and mother.??
20He said to him, ?Teacher, I have observed all these things from my youth.?
21Jesus looking at him loved him, and said to him, ?One thing you lack. Go, sell whatever you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me, taking up the cross.?
22But his face fell at that saying, and he went away sorrowful, for he was one who had great possessions. 23Jesus looked around, and said to his disciples, ?How difficult it is for those who have riches to enter into the Kingdom of God!?
24The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus answered again, ?Children, how hard is it for those who trust in riches to enter into the Kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through a needle?s eye than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God.?
26They were exceedingly astonished, saying to him, ?Then who can be saved??
27Jesus, looking at them, said, ?With men it is impossible, but not with God, for all things are possible with God.?
okay wow.. I was just tryin to clarify the Train bit from a post before me. Tongue in cheek.. my apologies I take everything said in here with a grain of salt and as a fortunate opportunity to learn other peoples view if I percieve them as right in my opinion or not thats another story
I live everyday with the memory of my Nana who lived through concentration camps.. her stories are lodged deep in my head . Her words and wishes for me were always
"I hope for you .. that you never have to ever live threw such even 1 day that I saw, you think you know hunger, you think you know pain.. I tell you I hope you never really know"
She is a strong women .. she lived through a horrible time , she came threw but she never forgot, she did though learn to forgive.
She came back married an Irishmen for Bray and I carry both of their heritage never to be forgotten but to be learned from. What they both gave me as well is the knowledge that a life in the third world is every bit as important as my own. How fortunate I am to live in Canada I am reminded of everyday I carry that close to my heart , and never far from my mind is the knowledge that with twist of fate my life could be so much different. it is why I don not $10.00 or less of my tax money going to people thatlive on less the a dollar a day
It's where my passion comes from on these subjects, it's why my heart is so devoted to the cause in Africa to my neighbours. So If because of this I offend anyone I apologise for the offense but not for my stance
Deadsox .. I do not take lightly the whole history trust me The term Nazi. I refuse to stand by when anyones humans rights are in question , thats what is happening in Africa make any argument you want.. Why then have the UN .. listen to Kofi Annen , listen to Colin Powell speak and try to justify not having part of you tax money designated to a nation that will be wiped out if we do nothing.. Because Charity is not enough.
My rant is really done
I live everyday with the memory of my Nana who lived through concentration camps.. her stories are lodged deep in my head . Her words and wishes for me were always
"I hope for you .. that you never have to ever live threw such even 1 day that I saw, you think you know hunger, you think you know pain.. I tell you I hope you never really know"
She is a strong women .. she lived through a horrible time , she came threw but she never forgot, she did though learn to forgive.
She came back married an Irishmen for Bray and I carry both of their heritage never to be forgotten but to be learned from. What they both gave me as well is the knowledge that a life in the third world is every bit as important as my own. How fortunate I am to live in Canada I am reminded of everyday I carry that close to my heart , and never far from my mind is the knowledge that with twist of fate my life could be so much different. it is why I don not $10.00 or less of my tax money going to people thatlive on less the a dollar a day
It's where my passion comes from on these subjects, it's why my heart is so devoted to the cause in Africa to my neighbours. So If because of this I offend anyone I apologise for the offense but not for my stance
Deadsox .. I do not take lightly the whole history trust me The term Nazi. I refuse to stand by when anyones humans rights are in question , thats what is happening in Africa make any argument you want.. Why then have the UN .. listen to Kofi Annen , listen to Colin Powell speak and try to justify not having part of you tax money designated to a nation that will be wiped out if we do nothing.. Because Charity is not enough.
My rant is really done
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BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
diamond said:I think Jesus said it best-
Jesus taught that charity and compassion should not be forced, it should be voluntary
He also said that our charity and compassion should not be staged and acts of kindness should be real as he recognizes our true intentions..
I agree and this was the point I was trying to make earlier. It shouldn't be forced. This is a representative government we vote for the canidate that will take care of the issues we stand for. Not everything we spend our tax dollars on will be something you completely agree with.
Dreadsox said:
Was better answered by somebody in this thread so I won't attempt it.
But how about noblesse oblige? You may not have directly owned a slave, but you are prospering largely because of them. Had you been born to a life of misery in the third world, I would want the best for you. Our governments are in positions of power and luxury because of our collective history, regardless of your children. Your child is not responsible for colonialism, but your child was blessed to be born in one of the most prosperous, free nations in the world, and I believe your child has a responsibility to the rest of the world. I believe I do. Hence, noblesse oblige. And if the government sends out money on your behalf or that of your daughter, I believe that is their duty as well. JMO.
Frankly, these taxes are like a fart in the wind for us, it's not a big deal and I can assure you that you would rather pay them than be living in a refugee camp in the Congo. Every day of the week and twice on Sunday, so at the end of the day, really, is it a sticking point? I don't really think it is for most people.
Of course it fits, because for example, Bono is arguing for funding for medicine for AIDS. Other forms of funding are essential for cancer, diabetes, CF, Alzheimer's, MS, etc. It is not enough for you to donate to the Cancer Society - our governments need to fund this research, as charity won't support it. AIDS was once shunned by the Reagan administration - turned out to be a huge, colossal mistake, did it not? I think that's why we need to ensure funding for causes that sometimes may not be the most pleasant for large segments of the population, because in the longterm, it pays off.
*Edited because as much as I dislike Reagan, I'd like to afford him the respect of having his name spelled correctly.
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Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
All donations over $2.00 are tax deductable
Pay, then pay again.
I say mostly free will. Unfortunately a lot of charity relies on government assistance though as this free society of ours is not as generous as we'd like to think we are.
Pay, then pay again.
I say mostly free will. Unfortunately a lot of charity relies on government assistance though as this free society of ours is not as generous as we'd like to think we are.
FizzingWhizzbees
ONE love, blood, life
FizzingWhizzbees[/i] [b]Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees The people who watched it happen weren't necessarily Nazis [/b][/quote] [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by nbcrusader said:
You think that everyone in Germany who saw their Jewish neighbours disappearing and didn't do anything about it was a Nazi? You think people in countries across Europe (and the rest of the world for that matter) who were fully aware of Hitler's atrocities long before 1939 were Nazis?
People were aware of what the Nazis were doing and they didn't act. Maybe it was because they were afraid of the consequences to them had they spoken up, maybe it's because they believed they couldn't do anything about it, maybe it's for one of a whole host of other reasons. It wasn't because they were Nazis.
Angela Harlem said:
Excellent.....
Ani...good points.....You may have not read what I typed that is fine.
As I said before...what started this thread is a reaction to the fact that people are in this forum always upset that the US does not give enough. It bothers me that we do give, a lot in tax $$$ and a lot in other ways through other organizations and that never seems to come into account and it never seems to be enough.
It also bothers me, that maybe because I am more conservative than others, it is alright to take my questions and paint them and taint them as being something they were not intended to be. I too have reasons to RESENT the comparison Concentration camps and Germany. In more ways than I care to discuss in this forum it has impacted my family and anyone who has seen me complain that Iraq get 86 billion and Africa 2 billion or 3 billion, should have been in here at least saying it was not fair to characterize me or my questions in that manner.
But that is not what FYM is about.
Anitram, again, your post is eloquent, I more than understand the situation.......Thank you for always being respectful, and I wish I could figure out how to make medical things work here in the US.
And Katey and Fizz.....
If you missed the UN Speech Yesterday where the Iraqi Ambassador spoke about how wrong it was for the International Community to sit back while Saddam commited the atrocities on his people, it reminded me very much of the point directed towards me, and the questions I was asking in this thread.
I again, was big enough to apologize yesterday, if I offended anyone in this forum, however, it is disappointing, that people who have known me in this forum would find it an acceptable comparison. I have reread my posts throughout, and NEVER did I say, do not give money. That would indicate I did not give a SHITE.
I am seriously done with this thread. It was a serious question, and it was never, ever intended to be, don't give out money and stand by and watch other people suffer.
Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
Ah crap. I confess I did not read this thread really before replying. I promise not to skim the first few replies and ignore the rest. Dread were you talking to me with the "Ani..." part? I really shouldn't read FYM when I have a headache lol.
Blacksword what you wrote about the trains is a pretty good example of why we don't like references to NAZI Germany. Such a reference is always going to end up causing more trouble than the original point attempted to make. If the thread isn't about Germany, please dont use the terms or reference them in any way. Fizzingwhizzbee's gave clarity to the point and was then told it was a 'cute' comparison. I thought what she said made sense in defining what the Auschwitz comment really meant. All this said though, its better to just not make them. I hope we can all drop this aspect of the discussion.
Blacksword what you wrote about the trains is a pretty good example of why we don't like references to NAZI Germany. Such a reference is always going to end up causing more trouble than the original point attempted to make. If the thread isn't about Germany, please dont use the terms or reference them in any way. Fizzingwhizzbee's gave clarity to the point and was then told it was a 'cute' comparison. I thought what she said made sense in defining what the Auschwitz comment really meant. All this said though, its better to just not make them. I hope we can all drop this aspect of the discussion.
Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
Well, of course you did! I am right as usual 
I just wrote out a long rambling reply but wont post it. It didnt make sense anyway and oversimplified the whole thing.
Good discussion though.
I just wrote out a long rambling reply but wont post it. It didnt make sense anyway and oversimplified the whole thing.
Good discussion though.
Salome
you are what you is
the amount of trust I put in the human race to be able to look beyond ones personal needs forces me to say "tax $$$"
diamond
ONE love, blood, life
i do think if youre looking for a 'tax deduction' when donating money is it really thru charity?
if youre looking to donate a dollar so u can reclaim it thru another way is that really charity?
W/motives like that it sounds like a bookeeper's 'wet dream.
I think true charity consists of-
1-Doing a kind act not expecting any compensation.
2-Doing a kind act out of the public eye where you will not recieve any accolades from your fellow man trying to be 'the cat's meow'..
This is why Christ said there is no greater gift than one voluntarily lays down his life for another.
That is true charity -not forced small incremental tax hikes that go to some polictian's pockect where a portion of the proceeds are later thrown at some worthy cause.
diamond
if youre looking to donate a dollar so u can reclaim it thru another way is that really charity?
W/motives like that it sounds like a bookeeper's 'wet dream.
I think true charity consists of-
1-Doing a kind act not expecting any compensation.
2-Doing a kind act out of the public eye where you will not recieve any accolades from your fellow man trying to be 'the cat's meow'..
This is why Christ said there is no greater gift than one voluntarily lays down his life for another.
That is true charity -not forced small incremental tax hikes that go to some polictian's pockect where a portion of the proceeds are later thrown at some worthy cause.
diamond
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
FizzingWhizzbees said:
Not at all. But we were not discussing the history of the holocaust. 60 years later, when a reference is made to sending Jews off to the death camps, the snapshot implication is that of "nazi".
Dreadsox,
I understand the intent of your thread, and I'm sorry it took a turn to something you didn't envision for it. Forget about implications, you're one of the good guys not just aroung here but in general. Have a wonderful Christmas (and a break from me for at least a week because I'm off to NYC
).
m.
I understand the intent of your thread, and I'm sorry it took a turn to something you didn't envision for it. Forget about implications, you're one of the good guys not just aroung here but in general. Have a wonderful Christmas (and a break from me for at least a week because I'm off to NYC
). m.
Nope I didnt miss a thing actually,
Okay Dreadsox I never insinuated ..
Although I was only tyring to clarify the Train bit, I never think it was directed at you ever. Anyway in my fault then I apologize.. I am little Irish... quick to anger(ha!) I would never make that direct comparison to anyone..People will read into these things what they want to
I always appreciate your point of view ...Cheers
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