Catholicism : unbiblical?

[Basstrap]

I lifted this from another message board...I thought it was controversial yet not too offensive

some points to ponder....

Clergy not allowed to marry:

1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 4:3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. 4:4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

1 Timothy 3:2 An overseer (Bishop), then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,

Use of repetitious prayer:

Matthew 6:7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.

Adoration of Mary:
Luke 11:27 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed." 11:28 But He said, "On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the word of God and observe it."

Calling Priests/Clerics "Father":

Matthew 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Worship/Adoration of Images and Statues:

Exodus 20:4" You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 20:5" You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God

Confession to a Priest:

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

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and those are just a few thoughts to chew on.

then there's the Apocrypha.

here's how it views women:

Ecclesiasticus 25:19 Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife's iniquity.
Ecclesiasticus 25:24 From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die.
Ecclesiasticus 22:3 It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined, and the birth of a daughter is a loss.

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I am neutral on this topic, so this is not me trying to provoke. I merely thought it an interesting question
-basstrap

 

[Kieran McConville]

Well yes, I suppose it is unbibilical then.

Mind you I've read enough about the Bible on these forums to have reached the conclusion that your view of Christ may depend heavily on which bible you're reading.

PS Catholics don't worship statues. That's just flat out wrong. Adoration is a hazier term (more in the realm of using the object as a source of contemplation), and I admit as a Catholic I'm ambivalent about these things, but it does not equate with worship (as one would an idol). Mind you, this is one of the key things that kicked off the Reformation, so it's not surprising it would be an issue.

I don't know what the quotes from the Apocryhpa are meant to indicate.

 

[BVS]

I think all religions blur the edge and often step over the line of the true word. I have my issues with Catholisism, but I have the upmost respect for those that follow it. I have many family and loved ones that are Catholic. That being said I have my issues with all other denominations that I've stepped foot in.

 

[kariatari]

unbiblical. sounds like a bushism.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

One thing I learned, I actually was having a Biblical talk with people from my church, that the Bible isn't exactly iron-clad (in many but not all cases). It is really quite open to interpretation. This guy from my church was explaining how it could have different meanings and he showed us different passagees that could very easily be seen from different points of view.

Guess it's just something to ponder. I do disagree with some of the things from the Catholic church, but I don't want to deny them that but to just humbly show them how a relationship with God can be much more fulfilling than simply following "religion" or "rules".

 

[BostonAnne]

I think all religions blur the edge and often step over the line of the true word. I have my issues with Catholisism, but I have the upmost respect for those that follow it. I have many family and loved ones that are Catholic. That being said I have my issues with all other denominations that I've stepped foot in.

This goes for me too, expect that I've only stepped foot into one other denomination and it works for me. To me, this is just another example of using the Bible to justify intolerance of others.

One thing I learned, I actually was having a Biblical talk with people from my church, that the Bible isn't exactly iron-clad (in many but not all cases). It is really quite open to interpretation. This guy from my church was explaining how it could have different meanings and he showed us different passagees that could very easily be seen from different points of view.

I have learned this also and don't believe in using the Bible to point fingers at others.

 

[thrillme]

re: 1 Timothy 4:3.

Catholicism does not forbid marriage, just for the priests/bishops/leaders.

32I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs--how he can please the Lord. 33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world--how he can please his wife-- 34and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world--how she can please her husband. 35I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord."--1 Cor 7.

I think perhaps Catholicism took this advice, which is said is advice not command.

In Timothy, that would be the forbidding of marriage in and of itself, the institution of marriage.

I think there should be some respect for Mary, as she was the one woman chosen to bare Jesus. Maybe Catholicism goes to far, but some respect should be there right?

"Confession to a Priest:

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

Well, that would be confessing your sins to another.

I'm not Catholic, but I do feel they are just as much Christians as Protestants/Lutherans/ etc.

We'd agree on the essentials,
Jesus born of a virgin-
Catholicism believe this, Protestants do too.

Trinity, 3 entities in 1, God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit-
Both believe this.

Gospel, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus--
both believe this.

The fundamentals, are generally in accordance.

Read from the parts of the Bible that are the same if there's discrepencies.

Aside from the Apocrypha, the Catholic Bible is the same as the one without it right?

I've no problem with Catholics, many in my family are, I don't think they're any less Christian.

There's a big difference between a Christian and say, an atheist.

A Protestant and Catholic would agree Jesus is the Son of God, whereas an atheist would not.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

here's how it views women:

Ecclesiasticus 25:19 Any iniquity is insignificant compared to a wife's iniquity.
Ecclesiasticus 25:24 From a woman sin had its beginning. Because of her we all die.
Ecclesiasticus 22:3 It is a disgrace to be the father of an undisciplined, and the birth of a daughter is a loss.

Well how terrible! Thank goodness those good old conservative Protestants (yes, the same ones who denounce Catholicism as unbiblical) are here to remind us that discrimination against women is wrong. I feel a lot safer knowing that Jerry Falwell et al are here to defend my rights against those misogynist Catholics.

 

[Basstrap]

I don't really understand your last post, fizz. The sarcasm threw me off- who was that directed to?

anyway,
You know there are many protestants who view catholicism as a cult?
I don't buy into that...that is plain ridiculous. But no doubt it is an idea pessed down from Luther and the reformation.

The arguments I posted are weak but common. When I read them I could see holes in each point.

here's another reply:

the problem with that argument (which is used quite often) is that the Bible is not quite as authoritative for Catholics as it is for Protestants...they might look at those verses, and some would offer you arguments about why they don't contradict Catholicism, but others would just shrug. for them, the Church is an older and more central authority than the Scriptures.

which, in a way, makes sense, since it was established before for the Scriptures, and it organized the Scriptures. i mean...it was Catholics who chose to allow those verses into the Bible, and not leave them out. (well, Catholics among others)

the whole notion that doctrine (and, essentially, God's Will) can be sought and interpreted through the Scriptures alone is actually quite new.

 

[Klaus]

Is Catholicism unbiblical?

From my point of view yes.

Is this a problem for Catholicism? No since they claim the pope as the successor of Peter and because of that they say he's "infallible".
So their logic is consistent. They don't have to be biblical as soon as the Pope tells something different.

ps i don't like people who try to convince the others smashing Bible quotes at each other (mostly out of context) - well that's no attack on anyone here personal but i've seen debates like that too often going into such and direction

 

[Klaus]

Having said that i must admit that i'm in the mood to throw a Bible quote at you

Romans 12:10

Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I don't really understand your last post, fizz. The sarcasm threw me off- who was that directed to?

Well, it was definitely not directed at you and I'm sorry if it came across that way. It was directed generally at all those who view Catholicism as some sort of cult, or who claim that Catholics aren't really Christians.

 

[pax]

The book of Ecclesiasticus, FYI, is a deuterocanonical text included only in Bibles that include the "Apocrypha"--either "Catholic" Bibles or ecumenical study bibles like the Oxford Annotated NRSV (my Bible of choice).

 

[nbcrusader]

Man takes something perfect, like the Bible, and creates something imperfect.

The innumerable sects, denominations and churches under the Christian banner are a testament to man's will and self-interest. It would be impossible for man to create and stay with one "church".

 

[verte76]

We Catholics definitely do not worship statues. I cannot imagine worshipping what is basically a piece of stone. Yesterday before mass, I stopped at our shrine to Our Lady of Fatima and prayed the rosary. Incidentally, I do not see the rosary as "meaningless" repetitious prayer, so I don't think the Bible condemns it. I suppose if one is not Catholic, it is unbiblical. Also, marriage is certainly not forbidden; it only is for priests.

 

[Diemen]

Speaking of marriage and priesthood, I saw a fascinating documentary on HBO called "Celibacy" that dealt with the Catholic church and it's dated (and often dangerous) views regarding sexuality and celibacy. It was extremely well done and as a Catholic myself it was definitely an eye opener.

 

[verte76]

Speaking of marriage and priesthood, I saw a fascinating documentary on HBO called "Celibacy" that dealt with the Catholic church and it's dated (and often dangerous) views regarding sexuality and celibacy. It was extremely well done and as a Catholic myself it was definitely an eye opener.

Yes, I'm familiar with some of the, uh, more extreme teachings about sexuality and celibacy.

 

[anitram]

There are many things with Catholicism I take issue.

But I agree with one - the Bible is not the final authority.

Also, you do not worship statues or the Saints, you pray to them to interject on your behalf. If that is unbiblical, then so should it be when you ask your friends and family to pray for you.

 

[BostonAnne]

Also, you do not worship statues or the Saints, you pray to them to interject on your behalf. If that is unbiblical, then so should it be when you ask your friends and family to pray for you.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Really the great thing about the Catholic Church is that it not only can, but will, survive the collapse of the diseased organ in Rome known as the Official Roman Catholic Church.

 

[Pearl]

Priests were allowed to marry until the Middle Ages. That changed when the children of the priests began to fight over who would inherit the land of the monasteries, and to stop the controversy, the Church forbid priests to marry so there wouldn't be any offspring to claim the land.

 

[verte76]

You're quite right, priests were allowed to marry until the twelfth century, when the Third Lateran Council (I think I have my council names right there, I know it wasn't Fourth Lateran) forbade priests to marry. They did this to stop corruption in the church. There was a problem with offices in the church and such becoming hereditary. This was not cool, it caused alot of problems. That being said clerical celibacy has its own problems. The way I look at it any human institution, and the Church is definitely a human institution, is imperfect. We'd still have problems if priests were allowed to marry. Perhaps sexual abuse would go away. This is very important to me. I have been in an abusive relationship, and trust me, it's hell. This stuff has got to be stopped.

 

[nbcrusader]

Also, you do not worship statues or the Saints, you pray to them to interject on your behalf. If that is unbiblical, then so should it be when you ask your friends and family to pray for you.

It seems that there is a difference between praying to a dead person to interject on your behalf and asking a living person to pray to God on your behalf.

 

[pax]

But don't all Christians believe that the faithful departed have eternal life with Christ? (I'm not being snarky; if one believes in eternal life with Christ, then it should stand to reason that asking the saints to pray for you is just as valid as asking living people.)

 

[nbcrusader]

Well, saints = all believers in heaven

We are told to pray for each other. And, we are told to pray in Jesus' name.

I can't recall anything in Scripture that says we have the ability to communicate with those in heaven other than God Himself.

 

[HeartlandGirl]

Well, saints = all believers in heaven

I think it's pretty obvious that in this discussion, people are referring to those who have been canonized by the Catholic church as saints via a formal process.

I think non-Catholics have a lot of misconceptions about the saints. Perhaps if they better understood how saints fit into the scheme of things in the Catholic church, they wouldn't see it as such a strange, even sinful, thing.

 

[Dreadsox]

I can't recall any SOLID evidence that there is a trinity either. Does that mean it is not true?