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Old 03-14-2007, 12:17 PM   #31
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I'm sorry if this topic has been brought up before, although I still don't quite have a lucid understanding.

http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html

I don't think the Bible does say anything about the act of marriage between gays either which liberal and conservative Catholics agree on, but you can extrapolate the many Bible's passages condemning homosexuality and form a pretty conclusive view that homosexual marriage is a sin from the understanding that homosexuality obviously is. But to what extent do we recognise these messages?

Leviticus 18:22 states the principle: "You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

There's several other 'unequivocal' passages in the Old Testament with a similar message, don't need to be listed, not so much in the new testament.

I'm not starting a fight Bono Vox, although you always seem to come across as the agressor, I really don't even see this as being agressive. But I think it is almost totally up to peoples own discretion to pick and choose what they recognise from the Bible or not. We progressively ignore all the 'bad bits' as our lifestyle and the times change, and focus on all the good messages that fit in with today. It makes me wonder why it is recognised at all. I'm not ripping anyones head off, that's just the way I see it.

A question, I was brought up with the understanding that Catholics in general recognise the Pope's authority as somebody 'appointed' by God to do his work and whatnot. So if the Pope opposes gay marriage, shouldn't most Catholics given they recognise his authority? How much credence do they give to the Pope's word?
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:34 PM   #32
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman

A question, I was brought up with the understanding that Catholics in general recognise the Pope's authority as somebody 'appointed' by God to do his work and whatnot. So if the Pope opposes gay marriage, shouldn't most Catholics given they recognise his authority? How much credence do they give to the Pope's word?
Along these lines, I've often found myself wondering at what point does one stop being Catholic and just someone that attends a Catholic church and practices Protestant beliefs? I know many Catholics whose theology just doesn't add up. I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the contemporary definition of what makes someone a Catholic?
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:45 PM   #33
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Along these lines, I've often found myself wondering at what point does one stop being Catholic and just someone that attends a Catholic church and practices Protestant beliefs? I know many Catholics whose theology just doesn't add up. I'm having a hard time understanding what exactly is the contemporary definition of what makes someone a Catholic?
That's an interesting question. I was raised as a Catholic, but even growing up, I know my parents did not agree with everything (ex. my parents used birth control, I'm pretty sure they don't think the Pope is infallible). I think of it as more of a cultural thing, than a religious thing. You identify with that group because that was the environment in which you were raised.

It's strange, because if you use birth control as an example, I think the vast majority of American Catholics don't follow the churches teachings. Even going to Sunday school, I can't recall knowing any kids who had 6, 7, 8+ siblings.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:33 PM   #34
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But doesn't Leviticus talk about following a sort of holy code of behavior? I often thought that was condemning promiscuity.

You also have to consider the different translations of that passage. Given the text of some of those, it can be interpreted to say that 2 men should not lie is a bed which was intended for a woman. So like, a husband having an affair with another man in his wife's bed.

I could be wrong, but I'm just saying it isn't so concrete. It is really up for interpretation. Thats why there are so many different translations.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:34 PM   #35
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By the way, I actually had a dream last night where the pope apologized for what he said and made some corrections.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:36 PM   #36
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:43 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
I'm sorry if this topic has been brought up before, although I still don't quite have a lucid understanding.

http://www.gotquestions.org/gay-marriage.html

I don't think the Bible does say anything about the act of marriage between gays either which liberal and conservative Catholics agree on, but you can extrapolate the many Bible's passages condemning homosexuality and form a pretty conclusive view that homosexual marriage is a sin from the understanding that homosexuality obviously is. But to what extent do we recognise these messages?

Leviticus 18:22 states the principle: "You [masculine] shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

There's several other 'unequivocal' passages in the Old Testament with a similar message, don't need to be listed, not so much in the new testament.

I'm not starting a fight Bono Vox, although you always seem to come across as the agressor, I really don't even see this as being agressive. But I think it is almost totally up to peoples own discretion to pick and choose what they recognise from the Bible or not. We progressively ignore all the 'bad bits' as our lifestyle and the times change, and focus on all the good messages that fit in with today. It makes me wonder why it is recognised at all. I'm not ripping anyones head off, that's just the way I see it.

Well it just seems you convienently ignore or "forget" certain answers or whole entire threads that I know you've participated in. Maybe you're just searching for some justification or need someone on your side for the "sacredness" of your athiest marriage. Which is just funny in itself.

Listing one passage without context or translation is almost entirely useless. As your example above; Levitical law also says don't lay with your wife while she's mensturating. How many Christians are following that one? Also Levitical law, man made law, was abolished come New Testament. Do you know the background of Levitical law? Not to mention it never says anything about woman with woman. Context, context, context...

Of course there's a lot more detail that can be gone into, but as Ormus said it's a waste of time for it's been said over and over in numerous threads. A simple search would give you more detail.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:58 PM   #38
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I know. I had to wake up to harse reality.
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:08 PM   #39
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That's an interesting question. I was raised as a Catholic, but even growing up, I know my parents did not agree with everything (ex. my parents used birth control, I'm pretty sure they don't think the Pope is infallible). I think of it as more of a cultural thing, than a religious thing. You identify with that group because that was the environment in which you were raised.
I think it is a culture thing to. I don't really know any Catholics that believe you can only access Christ through the Church, or that the Pope is an intermediary between the laypeople and God, or that you can be saved through good works alone.... I'm Protestant because I believe I am saved through Grace alone. But most of my Catholic friends say the same thing, sooooooo....? I guess I wonder how Catholics define themselves, in a theological sense. What makes them Catholic and me Protestant, besides being from a family that says "we are Catholic"? Maybe verte can help me out...
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:30 PM   #40
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I think it is a culture thing to. I don't really know any Catholics that believe you can only access Christ through the Church, or that the Pope is an intermediary between the laypeople and God, or that you can be saved through good works alone.... I'm Protestant because I believe I am saved through Grace alone. But most of my Catholic friends say the same thing, sooooooo....? I guess I wonder how Catholics define themselves, in a theological sense. What makes them Catholic and me Protestant, besides being from a family that says "we are Catholic"? Maybe verte can help me out...
The whole labels thing really confuses me too. I was raised "catholic", meaning we went to church every sunday, but that was it. No discussion or anything. I came into the religion later on in college. I still affiliate myself with the church, not because of authority or anything, but mostly because I find solace in some of the sacraments and rituals that the other christian religions do not practice.

At the same time, i've also been learning about other non-christian religious practices, and have absorbed them into my own unique faith. I also went through a phase (and sometimes I still do this) where when asked what religion i was, I usually responded with franciscan instead of catholic. i've found a community (and now the jesuits too) where i feel like some of my more mystic practices and interpretations are embraced.

but i still go to a catholic church. i've been to others, but again, they don't have the rituals that sustain me. however lately, i find it harder and harder to tell people "i am catholic." only because i feel that although this was my foundation for my spiritual evolution, it certainly puts a ceiling on it and limits on what i do believe.

however, usually for demographic purposes, i still mark the box for catholic. haha but many times now when asked what my religion is, my response is usually "love."

i'm not sure if theres really a clear definition of what makes a catholic. theres loads of different style of churches, and then theres even loads of different orders and other communities within the catholic church. it is so diverse. kinda like a big salad.
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Old 03-14-2007, 03:50 PM   #41
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Ormus, when you say "natural law" are you referring to the passages like in Romans that talk about unnatural acts?
I don't mean to step on your toes here, Ormus, but I can probably field this question. "Natural law" is a concept dating as far back as Plato, but was developed strongly by Stoics and early Christian thinkers. Essentially, as the argument goes, each organ of the body has a specific function and purpose; to use it otherwise is a violation of nature. The analogy frequently made in early Christian texts is to the sewing of a field; seed was only to be sown where it could be expected to grow and flourish. The penis was taken as a means of procreation, and nothing else; therefore, to utilize it for homosexual relations was seen as a violation of its natural purpose, for obvious reasons. Ormus astutley mentions Augustine, but the notion really goes back to Clement of Alexandria, Justin Martyr, and even Philo. There is actually a passage in Clement where he explicitly states, "to engage in intercourse wihtout intending children is to outrage nature." In this case, disapproval of homosexuality became a consequence of the prohibition placed upon non-procreative sex.
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Old 03-14-2007, 04:38 PM   #42
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i'm not sure if theres really a clear definition of what makes a catholic. theres loads of different style of churches, and then theres even loads of different orders and other communities within the catholic church. it is so diverse. kinda like a big salad.
I could be wrong, but I'd wager that the Protestant church is equally diverse (Lutherans, Reformed, Christian Reformed, United Reformed, Baptist, Methodist, Presby.....the wiki article lists a source stating there are 33,000 Protestant denominations!).

Is there any one core belief that all Catholics subscribe to?

I guess I just find it rather odd how often I get into discussions with people (not on Interference) who say they are Catholic and like to argue in favor of Catholicism, but most of their beliefs are just as Protestant, if not more so, than my own. How can I convert to something that's basically what I already believe, just less well defined?

Protestants also tend go take things issue-by-issue, but you simply cannot be a Protestant without believing that Jesus Christ alone is your Lord and Savior and only through his Grace you are saved. That's the point of Protestantism. If you are a Catholic and believe this, how are you not a Protestant rather than a Catholic? I realize since they are both Christian, many of the beliefs not mutually exclusive, but surely there must be ONE core belief...
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Old 03-14-2007, 04:40 PM   #43
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I could be wrong, but I'd wager that the Protestant church is equally diverse (Lutherans, Reformed, Christian Reformed, United Reformed, Baptist, Methodist, Presby.....the wiki article lists a source stating there are 33,000 Protestant denominations!).

Is there any one core belief that all Catholics subscribe to?

I guess I just find it rather odd how often I get into discussions with people (not on Interference) who say they are Catholic and like to argue in favor of Catholicism, but most of their beliefs are just as Protestant, if not more so, than my own. How can I convert to something that's basically what I already believe, just less well defined?

Protestants also tend go take things issue-by-issue, but you simply cannot be a Protestant without believing that Jesus Christ alone is your Lord and Savior and only through his Grace you are saved. That's the point of Protestantism. If you are a Catholic and believe this, how are you not a Protestant rather than a Catholic? I realize since they are both Christian, many of the beliefs not mutually exclusive, but surely there must be ONE core belief...
hmm, hang on...i think i actually have a book where this is addressed.

rocrastinating:
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Old 03-14-2007, 04:42 PM   #44
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oh wait! Protestant churches don't have Eucharist, right? At least, I was told that in the Protestant church, it is not the body and blood. Is that right?
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Old 03-14-2007, 04:49 PM   #45
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oh wait! Protestant churches don't have Eucharist, right? At least, I was told that in the Protestant church, it is not the body and blood. Is that right?
Our sacraments are the Lord's Supper (like Eucharist - bread and wine, in fact I don't even know what other denoms call it but mine calls it Lord's Supper) and Baptism because these are the only two sacraments Jesus himself performed. The Christian Reformed churches have Profession of Faith, but it is not a sacrament. At my church, you take some serious classes, have to meet with the reverend, have to prepare answers to 12 questions, then go before the Elders to tell your life's story and answer the questions they pick. Then if you are approved (which you always are), you go in front of the church and become a professing member of the church. At this time, you can start taking Lord's Supper. You also have to be baptized first, since profession of faith is seen as the closing out of the covenant opened between the church and God at the time the baby is baptized (the church promises to raise the baby in God's way, then when you are like 21 you do profession of faith which proves the church has done it's job).

As for to what extent we believe it's the physical body and blood, that all depends on the denomination.
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