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Old 03-13-2007, 10:49 PM   #16
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There's a certain amount of contempt for alternative or modern views, which he and his cronies put forward. At a synod here, not sure if it was in Sydney or to address issues in Australia, his small army of drones stated emphatically to an audience of dumbfounded bishops that they were helping lead Australians astray, and if we as a nation were not so open minded, we'd not be influenced by the sinful temptations of allowing same sex marriages, contraception, first trimester abortions, remarriages with or without annulments, marriage for clergy and the clincher - gay clergy... 'Cause, abstinence is different for each orientation.
His refusal to move the massive institution that is the church forward is just stupidity. we don't live in a society where sexuality is irrelevant. We don't live in a society where you die of old age with the person you marry. Life, society, and the individuals in it are not the same as they were 200 years ago. Even 100 years ago. The world outside the upper echelons of the Roman Catholic Church is moving and evolving. He and his predecessor are and were not. I think we all agree you don't actually 'leave' the Catholic Church, you just stop attending. His unwillingness to help the flock who are shattered at these choices is shameful. The issue just goes on and on. I don't disagree with you by the way, PJW, quite the contrary.
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:51 PM   #17
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Originally posted by DrTeeth


I come from a Catholic family and I don't know anybody under 80 who agrees with him or has any respect for him. But then again, the Vatican has all but given up on Dutch Catholics.
I think I said this to you before when this topic came up a few weeks back, lol, but it's not the Dutch personally. It is any society or nation which is not still practicing old fashioned living reflective of old Church teachings.

.. But you guys are sinners, anyway.
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Old 03-13-2007, 10:57 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem The world outside the upper echelons of the Roman Catholic Church is moving and evolving. He and his predecessor are and were not. I think we all agree you don't actually 'leave' the Catholic Church, you just stop attending. His unwillingness to help the flock who are shattered at these choices is shameful. The issue just goes on and on. I don't disagree with you by the way, PJW, quite the contrary. [/B]
I agree.

It is one thing to stick to theology, but it is another to realize the practicalities of life. I am not saying they need to believe something is anything less than a sin, but maintaining a strong stance against birth control (particularly condoms) in the era of AIDS adds up to gross negligence. It is worse than that - it amounts to an abuse of a position of trust and authority in areas of the world which are very impoverished and very influenced by the Church and its teachings. These people are not being properly educated and the Church is abusing their position of trust, in my opinion. It's really rather shameless.

Something can be a sin in your eyes, but let's not condemn the alleged sinner to death. Let us deal practically while we live in a less-than-ideal world. You can provide spiritual guidance all the while providing education and protection and let God sort us out when we've left this place.
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Old 03-13-2007, 11:03 PM   #19
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Originally posted by anitram
but maintaining a strong stance against birth control (particularly condoms) in the era of AIDS adds up to gross negligence.
but i thought he was changing his stance on that issue? i can't remember what the final word was...
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:27 AM   #20
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As far as I remember, there were some rumors but they were stated to be patently false and there is absolutely no move to change this policy anytime soon.

In fact I know there is no move, because of the recent developments in Brazil, and the Bishops there reaffirmed the Vatican's view, and this was just days ago.
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Old 03-14-2007, 12:42 AM   #21
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the only reason these guys are clinging so close to tradition is so they can maintain their hierarchy. the joke is on them though, because as it has been stated repeatedly here, people are turning a deaf ear.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:18 AM   #22
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Originally posted by anitram
I am not saying they need to believe something is anything less than a sin
I wish, at least, that they had a coherent reason for deciding that something is "sinful," rather than basing it off of illogical medieval methodology and/or "tradition." The "natural law" pronouncements stretching from the time of St. Augustine of Hippo (A.D. 354-430) to St. Thomas Aquinas (A.D. 1225-1274) that led to the Catholic Church's virulently anti-sex theology is nothing short of a historical embarrassment. It is not "Christian" in the slightest, to me, as much as the fact that when Augustine had his "conversion," he, instead, brought all the anti-sex attitudes of his former heresy, Manicheanism, into the church (this heresy's other major contributions to Christianity include an obsession with "good versus evil" and a complete hatred of women). Regardless of the history, however, the fact that anyone takes this crap seriously, when we have things like science and reason and logic today, just shows how much they have deified "tradition" above anything else.

It is sick and sad, and if lines like this were uttered by any other dictatorship, we'd laugh them off and implore them to join the 21st century...perhaps even through a "coalition of the willing" (tongue planted firmly in cheek on that part). But because this ancient autocracy has demanded respect for so long, it seems like the whole world is too scared to tell them off. But there's one thing that we cannot forget: they are nothing but human beings, just like you and me.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:26 AM   #23
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Originally posted by redhotswami
the only reason these guys are clinging so close to tradition is so they can maintain their hierarchy. the joke is on them though, because as it has been stated repeatedly here, people are turning a deaf ear.
The Vatican displays the classic symptoms that plague any long-running dictatorship. Since they operate under a completely closed loop of power (i.e., the Pope appoints the cardinals who then appoint the next Pope), there's absolutely nothing that can be done to foster a "marketplace of ideas."

And, in many ways, that structure is their joke on us. We can turn a deaf ear all we want, but that means nothing to them, because that does nothing to affect that closed loop of power. The people are not the Church; they are. The people are there only to listen to their dictates, to carry out their orders, and to give them money. And, in the end, "money" is the only way you can hurt them, because without donations, their world cannot survive.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:28 AM   #24
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I don't want to sound agressive, I'm just very curious as it's something I still don't understand. How can anyone call themselves a Catholic and support homosexual marriage and the act of homosexulaity, when the Bible (the word of God) is so incredibly clear on the issue? I don't understand how you can cherry pick and embellish the religion to suit you, it makes no sense to me.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:33 AM   #25
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I think people do that all the time to twist it to their view. I don't know what things are in the bible to said its any homosexuals, but then I have seen people take the most inane passages and make some stupid conclusion out of them.

Besides, who gives a fuck what the pope thinks. If you believe in God and the like, then you believe in it regardless if you gay and whatnot, i don't like this sort of fairweather type of belief where you have to be a perfect something before you're one of gods children or something and the fact that people go along with it.
Maybe thats why im not religious i don't like people tell me what to do or think.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:42 AM   #26
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
I don't want to sound agressive, I'm just very curious as it's something I still don't understand. How can anyone call themselves a Catholic and support homosexual marriage and the act of homosexulaity, when the Bible (the word of God) is so incredibly clear on the issue? I don't understand how you can cherry pick and embellish the religion to suit you, it makes no sense to me.
We've had many threads on this subject before, and I know that you've read them. And I'm not in the mood to repeat myself. In short: The Bible is not "so incredibly clear" on this issue to many Biblical scholars, and those fluent in the ancient languages that make up the Bible often reveal a much different picture on this subject than traditional translations would have us believe.

However, Catholicism takes on a whole new dimension in that many key Vatican scholars have flat out agreed with the scholarly assertion that the Bible does not mention modern homosexuality. And when they say that, they are quick to point out that the Catholic Church's view on sexuality is not based on those Bible passages, but based on medieval "natural law" theology that I mentioned above. It is this same theology that bans all sexual expressions outside of penis-vagina intercourse between a married heterosexual couple that could lead to pregnancy. And, as such, everything from homosexuality to masturbation to oral sex to anal sex to contraception to premarital sex is banned. And, with that, probably 99% of the Western world has engaged in at least one of those.

The official Vatican stance on this subject is that same-sex orientations are part of nature, and, as such, they officially do not believe in "ex-gay therapies" that are prevalent in fundamentalist Protestantism. However, their refusal to budge on their "natural law" theology--the same theology that once stated that all women were from Satan and that all fetuses were male, with female fetuses existing only due to the interference of Satan in the womb and referred to the "rhythm method" as evil--is why homosexuality is "sinful" in their eyes.

Plus, the notion that a religion is an unchanging institution with no allowance for dissenting voices is a more modern construction. The first millennium or so of the Catholic Church had many varying philosophies, which a good Catholic encyclopedia would be more than happy to tell you about ad nauseum. This is why Christians in England, for instance, are so different from Christians in Italy. Each were influenced by different philosophies in their formative years.
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Old 03-14-2007, 08:42 AM   #27
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theres loads of people affiliated with other christian religions who believe in the bible but also support homosexual marriage and homosexual acts, not just catholics.

its not necessarily cherry-picking though. the bible clearly also condemns eating shellfish, while promoting things like slavery, and oppression of women.

the bible is not my faith. if somebody were to come out and prove every word in the bible to be false, i would still have my faith. my spirituality transcends text. i take it for what it is, but i also consider the context in which it was written. i mentioned before in another thread about some scholars retranslating the bible back into aramaic, which really turned my notions upside down when i read it. i do believe that the translations that exist today have lost some of the beauty of the original language.
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:16 AM   #28
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Originally posted by AussieU2fanman
I don't want to sound agressive, I'm just very curious as it's something I still don't understand. How can anyone call themselves a Catholic and support homosexual marriage and the act of homosexulaity, when the Bible (the word of God) is so incredibly clear on the issue? I don't understand how you can cherry pick and embellish the religion to suit you, it makes no sense to me.
You've asked this before and it's been answered before, as Ormus has also pointed out. Are you just trying to provoke?
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Old 03-14-2007, 10:55 AM   #29
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Originally posted by Ormus
It is this same theology that bans all sexual expressions outside of penis-vagina intercourse between a married heterosexual couple that could lead to pregnancy. And, as such, everything from homosexuality to masturbation to oral sex to anal sex to contraception to premarital sex is banned. And, with that, probably 99% of the Western world has engaged in at least one of those.


this is quite true. at least there's consistency with Catholicism.

if you've ever performed or received oral sex, masturbated, had premarital sex, or used any form of birth control, you're every bit the sodomite i am.

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Old 03-14-2007, 11:12 AM   #30
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Ormus, when you say "natural law" are you referring to the passages like in Romans that talk about unnatural acts?

I've always interpreted that particular passage about natural relations to be condemning doing things that are unnatural. Thus, heterosexuals naturally engage in heterosexual acts, and homosexuals naturally engage in homosexual acts, and so on.

Oh and by the way, AussieU2fanman, from what I remember, the bible doesn't say anything about homosexual marriage.
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