Capital Punishment? - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-27-2002, 10:05 AM   #31
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
The OT and NT are both fully God's Word. The message from Genesis through Revelation is consistent (though true understanding can only come from the Holy Spirit).
Then let us bask in the consistency of the "true Word of God," the 1611 KJV:

Jesus is nonviolent:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." -- Matthew 5:38-39

Jesus is violent:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." -- Matthew 10:34-38

Jesus is against divorce:

"And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." -- Luke 10:4-9

Jesus permits divorce:

"It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." -- Matthew 5:31-32

...

Putting this all aside, I've studied all of this more in-depth, and I find a lot of the inconsistencies come from the very inconsistent evolution of the Bible. It would perhaps interest one to know that Matthew is written by, at least, two people: the Jewish Christian original text (which explains all the upholding of the Mosaic Law, and the "sword" passage) and the Gentile Christian revisions (which explains all the passages that do not uphold the Mosaic Law).

Truthfully, all I can do really is *sigh* as most of us attempt to beat up ourselves in upholding the contradictory standards of the gospel of Matthew, especially when stacked up against the Pauline epistles:

"For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." -- Galatians 2:19-21

Law...law...law...it appears that the Gentile Christian ministry of St. Paul (whereupon modern Christianity finds its roots) has been completely eroded over the millennia, and Jewish Christian ideals in Matthew that would make St. Paul cringe have made its way into the Protestantism. This is what I find to be dangerous, but I guess I have no control over the masses.

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 10:28 AM   #32
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 08:44 PM
Just popping in to say that this is a very well-maintained thread...keep it up, FYMers.
__________________

__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 10:29 AM   #33
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
So God's word is not present in the Old Testament?
I am a student of history, amongst others, and it should interest one to know what the creators of the New Testament canon thought of the Old Testament. Initially, as the Gentile Christian community of St. Paul effectively took control of the entire Christian Church, they wished to create a canon that only consisted of the gospels of Mark and Luke, along with only the Pauline epistles. The law of the Old Testament was fulfilled with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, to them, so it was no longer needed. However, the canon as we see it today came about, because they, apparently, appreciated history as well; the Old Testament was included only because the New Testament made reference to it in instances. It was not meant to be taken as doctrine.

Of course, enter the Dark Ages, where Europe plunges into ignorance, and all this context is lost, minus the one constant: the Vatican, which maintained these records over the centuries. But, at this point, history was irrelevant, as the concept of "faith tradition"--in other words, whatever the Church says is the "word of God"--took over, and, couple that with the increasingly imperialist composition of the hierarchy, you can imagine the rest. All ripe for abuse over the next millennium, until the Protestant Reformation, which, equally, was uninterested in historical context.

Overall, I've found that people are less interested in discovering what the Bible has to say as much as they are interested in keeping things "the same." As we have a very violent and patriarchal cultural history, it is convenient to use the Bible to support this "tradition" of ours. Those who evoke love and equality are seen as "picking and choosing," but more so because it challenges the societal status quo. It was for this same reason that Jesus Christ was crucified; the Pharisees were uninterested in relinquishing their traditions that they knew their entire life, so they killed Him. Human nature has not changed in the slightest in over 2000 years.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 12:16 PM   #34
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon

Overall, I've found that people are less interested in discovering what the Bible has to say as much as they are interested in keeping things "the same." As we have a very violent and patriarchal cultural history, it is convenient to use the Bible to support this "tradition" of ours.

Melon
yes yes yes.
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 02:38 PM   #35
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


I am a student of history, amongst others, and it should interest one to know what the creators of the New Testament canon thought of the Old Testament. Initially, as the Gentile Christian community of St. Paul effectively took control of the entire Christian Church, they wished to create a canon that only consisted of the gospels of Mark and Luke, along with only the Pauline epistles. The law of the Old Testament was fulfilled with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, to them, so it was no longer needed. However, the canon as we see it today came about, because they, apparently, appreciated history as well; the Old Testament was included only because the New Testament made reference to it in instances. It was not meant to be taken as doctrine.
You said many things and I respect your knowledge of the history of the church. I would however, point out that you did not answer my question. Are you saying that the word of God cannot be found in the Old Testament? Your own statements indicate that they had as much respect for the Old Testament as the New Testament because it was included.

According to Matthew 5(17-18): "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until the heaven and the earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place."

Some would question if Jesus has yet fulfilled all that is written about the Messiah. This does not mean, I do not recognize him as the Messiah, but rather, all of the prophecies about the Messiah have not yet come to pass. Therefore, one could argue that the Old Testament is still a valid book.

Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Overall, I've found that people are less interested in discovering what the Bible has to say as much as they are interested in keeping things "the same." As we have a very violent and patriarchal cultural history, it is convenient to use the Bible to support this "tradition" of ours. Those who evoke love and equality are seen as "picking and choosing," but more so because it challenges the societal status quo. It was for this same reason that Jesus Christ was crucified; the Pharisees were uninterested in relinquishing their traditions that they knew their entire life, so they killed Him. Human nature has not changed in the slightest in over 2000 years.
Melon
There is a difference between the execution of Jesus Christ, and the administering of justice let's say in the case of the sniper. This has nothing to do with our "cultural history". I can love someone, even though they have done something wrong. This does not mean I should oppose the punishment wrongdoings. The sniper, rapists, and murderers of the world are not running around trying to change our "traditions". They have done nothing to contribute to changing "societal status quo". Jesus was however.

As for discovering what they bible says.........I agree many do not take the time to discover it. Since I am trying to discover it, maybe you can help me.

Show me once where Jesus stood opposed to just punishment against a murderer. You cannot equate him preventing the stoning of the prostitute with opposition to the death penalty. Prostitution is not murder.

To be come a follower of Christ, one has to change. There is no getting around it. The status quo people should be worried about starts within themselves.


Peace to All.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 03:45 PM   #36
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox

Show me once where Jesus stood opposed to just punishment against a murderer. You cannot equate him preventing the stoning of the prostitute with opposition to the death penalty. Prostitution is not murder.

To be come a follower of Christ, one has to change. There is no getting around it. The status quo people should be worried about starts within themselves.


Peace to All.
Your interpretation of the bible is your very own, but I interpreted that story differently. It was not about how bad the crime was the prostitute committed. It was about that she shouldnīt be stoned to death, regardless of what she has done.

The bible is not a straight book full of concrete laws, imHo. I think there is a kind of logic that canīt deal with the bible.

Another point: if I really was for death penalty, it would be right to put every soldier that ever has killed another soldier on death row. Sure, hah, now you will say that it was not the soldiers fault because it may have been war or it may have been an order that he had to execute, blah blah. I donīt mean to come off hard, so sorry if it sounds so. But to me those things DONīT COUNT ZERO. The standards of our societies regarding war donīt count nothing, theyīre worth less than the plastic bag to pick up your dogs shit. They are absolutely bad and rotten and make some places on beautiful mother earth to hellholes. So they have nothing to do with my opinion, you see? One life less on earth is one life less. Fault? Yes, the ones living can quarrel about whose fault it is for the rest of their lives. This is why I say, if I was for death penalty, every soldier who ever killed anyone (without personal reason, and not for selfdefense - and I mean selfdefense of his very own body, not of foggy things like nations or stuff) has committed the same crime like a killer. Now if I send him onto death row, I commit the same crime, see? I am killing a person, a human, no matter what he/ she has done. So I should be put on death row, right?

See, either everyone kills everyone or we all stay alive and happy, lock away the killers or rapers for the rest of their lives (without revisions), in a clean place but without TVs or shit, and try to make this world a better place by forbidding arms production, exports and imports; some will lose their job, but we donīt have enough social workers anyway, do we? To help the old and ill ones...

Sorry, I know I must sound like my head in the clouds, but you know, give me good serious reasons why that should not be worth a try. There are simple concepts (sure, there would be problems and its not that simple, but I am positive our experts can work that one out), so simple, and we could start so small.

History shows it doesnīt work out though... but have we ever all together truly tried?
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 04:56 PM   #37
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,272
Local Time: 07:44 PM
I don't believe in it for a very simple reason - I would not be able to "pull the plug" so to speak, myself because I believe it is immoral. Therefore, I would be a hypocrite if I required other people to do it in my name.

Thankfully I live in a country where the death penalty is not an option.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 10-27-2002, 05:07 PM   #38
Refugee
 
RavenStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Purgatory
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 07:44 PM
ummm...Must we keep quoting the bible? I know it's what you guys believe in and stuff but try to remember not everyone here is all the familiar with it as you guys are. It can get confusing. Thanks
__________________
RavenStar is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 05:09 PM   #39
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Your interpretation of the bible is your very own, but I interpreted that story differently. It was not about how bad the crime was the prostitute committed. It was about that she shouldnīt be stoned to death, regardless of what she has done.


Fine, you can interpret it that way. If you take the words from Matthew where Christ says he is not here to abolish the law, and think about the fact that the Message of Christ time and time again was that we had to be better than the law, the two are not in conflict. Christians had to live not just by the law, "thou shalt not murder", but even when angry with ones brother are subject to judgement. This does not erase that people who kill are subject to the law.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 05:13 PM   #40
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


I am a student of history, amongst others, and it should interest one to know what the creators of the New Testament canon thought of the Old Testament. Initially, as the Gentile Christian community of St. Paul effectively took control of the entire Christian Church, they wished to create a canon that only consisted of the gospels of Mark and Luke, along with only the Pauline epistles.


Then you must recognize that Paul himself states.....

If I have committed a crime or done anything deserving death, I do not seek to escape the death penalty; but if there is no substance to the charges they are bringing against me, then no one has the right to hand me over to them.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 05:17 PM   #41
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar
ummm...Must we keep quoting the bible? I know it's what you guys believe in and stuff but try to remember not everyone here is all the familiar with it as you guys are. It can get confusing. Thanks
Hey Ravenstar...we still you.

But, do you know what I do when I do not know or understand what someone is talking about?

I get a book, do a web search, and try and get some understanding on their point of view. It is obvious you are intelligent and are more than capable of educating yourself in this area. I am not saying you have to believe it.


Peace to all.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 05:28 PM   #42
Refugee
 
RavenStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Purgatory
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 07:44 PM
by the time I finish all that this conversation will be long gone. And I've just started a book on psychology so I wanna finish that first.
It's just that when you guys start quoting the bible the discussion turns in to your different interpritations of the bible instead of your views on capital punishment. Also, when all you do is quote the bible it makes it seem like you are just pasting the info here. Instead of just digging it up from your mind or something.
__________________
RavenStar is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 09:19 PM   #43
pax
ONE
love, blood, life
 
pax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Ewen's new American home
Posts: 11,412
Local Time: 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar
It's just that when you guys start quoting the bible the discussion turns in to your different interpritations of the bible instead of your views on capital punishment. Also, when all you do is quote the bible it makes it seem like you are just pasting the info here. Instead of just digging it up from your mind or something.
Yes, Raven, but many folks here base their views on the death penalty on what the Bible says. And I would venture to say that they post the excerpts from the Bible just in case someone--like you--isn't as familiar with the passages they are. They're making an attempt to include you and other non-Christians in the discussion by posting the pasages so you know exactly what they're talking about.

I think that while the debate may have strayed a bit, it's overall on track and is certainly going civilly. Let's keep it that way.
__________________
and you hunger for the time
time to heal, desire, time


Join Amnesty.
pax is offline  
Old 10-27-2002, 09:21 PM   #44
War Child
 
Sparkysgrrrl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: under the table and screaming
Posts: 754
Local Time: 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar
by the time I finish all that this conversation will be long gone. And I've just started a book on psychology so I wanna finish that first.
It's just that when you guys start quoting the bible the discussion turns in to your different interpritations of the bible instead of your views on capital punishment. Also, when all you do is quote the bible it makes it seem like you are just pasting the info here. Instead of just digging it up from your mind or something.
Yeah, what she said.
I leave for a day and I feel like I'm in church...

Don't have much time but another thing I want to remind myself to come back to:
I think keeping these criminals alive also allows them to be studied, which I feel is important, why people turn out the way they do, what made them do it, what makes them tick, and after all-

listening to their "born again Christian" bull when they're old and grey is just damned amusing.
__________________
Sparkysgrrrl is offline  
Old 10-28-2002, 04:55 AM   #45
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
daisybean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Born under a bad sign with a blue moon in your eyes
Posts: 8,577
Local Time: 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl

and after all-

listening to their "born again Christian" bull when they're old and grey is just damned amusing.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's bull. Most criminals don't even have a sense of remorse for thier crime. If a criminal who is sentenced to life in prision with no parole, has found a way to see what they did was wrong and made peace within themselves for it, how is it a bad thing? Nothing will ever "undo" the crime, but at least they are acknowledging what they did and are trying to make up for it.
__________________

__________________
"....But all I ever hear from you is "
daisybean is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright ÂĐ Interference.com