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Old 01-10-2006, 01:34 PM   #91
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Gotta love what the man of a million promises has done so far though. At the next provincial election watch it be neck and neck.


As of summer 2005 conservatives had 44% of the popular vote where Liberals had 34%... I guess Ontario realized their mistake.
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Old 01-10-2006, 01:37 PM   #92
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You must have mistaken me for a Liberal voter. I didn't vote for McGuinty nor would I, so what people think about him is irrelevant.

You brought up how wonderful Harris was for Ontario. So wonderful that after leaving in shame, poor Ernie Eves got totally run over by irate voters who couldn't stand the sight of another PC premier. In that respect, Harris did a wonderful job indeed. couldn't be better.
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Old 01-10-2006, 01:38 PM   #93
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Can someone please explain the media`s new love affair with Stephen Harper??

2 years ago it was Paul Martin and I`m not sure what`s changed to prompt this volte-face - (Martin was exonerated in the sponsorship scandal so I`m at a loss to explain this new-found love affair with Harper).
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Old 01-10-2006, 01:38 PM   #94
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Gotta love what the man of a million promises has done so far though. At the next provincial election watch it be neck and neck.

As of summer 2005 conservatives had 44% of the popular vote where Liberals had 34%... thats a decline of 10% for the liberals, the same number that the conservatives faced in 2003. I guess Ontario realised their mistake.

uggh i meant to click edit...stupid stupid stupid
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Old 01-10-2006, 01:42 PM   #95
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I have no idea, thats the media for ya...

This election will be won by the media not by the convictions of voters. But isn't that always the case.
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Old 01-10-2006, 01:49 PM   #96
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The media has been extremely biased and I have on idea why. One of the universities (Carleton maybe?) did a study and found that while Harper has been front and centre in the papers, both Martin and Layton have been pushed back to tiny photos on page 5. Very strange turnaround indeed.

I can't wait to have a Conservative government. It'll be just like the good old days of Mulroney.

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Old 01-10-2006, 01:55 PM   #97
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This is the way I see it...

Whenever a government comes into power and induces reforms of any sort, there is flux and the population will get uneasy. Ontario was displeased with Harris because they had just been under an NDP government which is all heavy spending on the government side.

This is stark contrast with the tory theory. When you have a left wing government and then a right wing government the road isnt going to be smooth.

IMHO.. if people were to analyze better and see where the ball is going rather than where it is now then they would see the benefits of a certain government.

What it comes down to is not a particular scandal deciding your vote, but rather the foundational belief of the party. Regardless of the party there will be scandals, thats politics. But the net motion of the party is what I look for, and vote on.

I find it interesting to see how many Liberal voters and Conservative voters ditch their party and jump on the band wagon when there is a tiny scandal in the grand scheme of things.

Ironic how 18 of my posts on a U2 website are on a completely unrelated topic.

Might I add, that mulroney and his cabinet were considered 'red tories', very center center right.
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Old 01-10-2006, 03:20 PM   #98
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Originally posted by djfeelgood
This is the way I see it...

Whenever a government comes into power and induces reforms of any sort, there is flux and the population will get uneasy. Ontario was displeased with Harris because they had just been under an NDP government which is all heavy spending on the government side.
But that does not jive with what actually happened.

Ontario was not displeased with Harris because of Bob Rae. In fact, they were happy to be rid of him and Harris' constant references to fiscal responsibility is exactly what got him elected. That combined with welfare reform and other expense cutting.

Even when he ran for re-election, he was successful (although less so than the first time around). Therefore even at that time, Ontario was not "uneasy" enough to unseat him.

It was when the effects of his policies became obvious that the people were so utterly sick of him and the PC in general that they booted all of their asses out without question. It had nothing to do with an adjustment period - Harris' popularity was HIGH right after being elected! It had to do with the public taking some time to realize exactly how costly he has been.

I was a university student under Harris. If he were still in office, I really wonder if we'd be paying double the tuition now. McGuinty froze fees temporarily but that has run out now and already UofT is talking of raising law school tuition to $21K next year. It was Harris' cuts to eduction in general and universities specifically which forced a lot of these institutions to increase their fees as if though inflation was 80%. That's just one of his policies for which we are still paying to this day.
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Old 01-10-2006, 04:25 PM   #99
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I should have elaborated better...

What I meant to say, was we had become used to was Bob Rae's government had done. Quite different from the Tory approach. Therefore when the Tories came into power their policies seemed harsh and aggressive simply because Rae had set the norm. When in absolute terms it really was sort of the undoing of what Rae did in an effort to pull in the opposite direction. So in simple terms, yes it was Harris' doing but it seemed worse than it really was in light of the 'Rae days'. The adjustment was occurring when he began to lose the popular vote. By his last days I'd say that he had pretty much undone what Rae's gov't had done and should they have had one more term it could have been very different. But you never know.

Harris also instated standardized testing which i am a firm believer in.

As far as tuition fees rising, Ontario although it has the 2nd highest rates in Canada, has increased less than most other provinces as a percentage from '91 to '03

Also, although a Tory government may initially allow the rise in tuition fees due to the prinicples they run by, it will open the door to corporate sponsorship, like its done in the states. Or contrarily, A decrease in full public health care funding which is a farce anyways could be allocated to education, and then you'd see tuition drop.

cheers,
Aaron
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Old 01-10-2006, 04:53 PM   #100
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Harris also instated standardized testing which i am a firm believer in.

Are you now?

Did you know that standardized tests (beginning with the predecessor to the SATs) were designed by Harvard and Princeton in order to keep Jews out of the Ivy League?

There is a reason for designing standardized tests - they were introduced in order to combat meritocracy and as such have deep flaws.
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Old 01-10-2006, 05:49 PM   #101
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....what I found interesting about the link you provided Zoomerang96 is that 52% of Quebeckers would vote for the Bloc and the remainder would vote for a federal party - of those voting for the Bloc, quite a few are actually federalists and not separatists. What this poll tells me is that support for separation has not surpassed the 50% mark, despite all the fearmongering to the contrary in recent months.
This is an interesting point. Tonight's French debate will be interesting, as well (I think I'm tending to overuse the word "interesting").

So much is still up in the air, despite the polls. I think that the result of the election ultimately comes down to health care and fiscal responsibility. There's a whole lot of grey in between, but basically, the Conservatives are banking on corruption frustration to push them to victory, while the Liberals think that our hearts are with health care.

Over the next two weeks, these ideals will be refined and sharpened into uprecedented attacks, especially from the Liberals. If the Conservatives can stand the heat, the outcome is obvious.

But, keep in mind, Canadians have just this week emerged from the holiday fog of egg nog and Toblerone bars. The real race has just begun.
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Old 01-10-2006, 07:29 PM   #102
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Did you know that standardized tests (beginning with the predecessor to the SATs) were designed by Harvard and Princeton in order to keep Jews out of the Ivy League?
What relevance does that have for now? Do you think thats what will happen?
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Old 01-10-2006, 09:27 PM   #103
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Harris did wonders for Ontario given that he was handed a plate with Bob Rae's feces on it.

He destabilized the teachers union which is far too powerful. Teachers in my opinion are overpaid and treat teaching youth more as a 'job' job than what it should be, a passion driven job. Not to mention they get 2 paid months off and a pension to die for. In 1997 teachers walked out for 3 weeks. For the love of learning? Bullshit.
Truthfully, have you ever TAUGHT? Do you have any idea how incredibly stressful and difficult it is to be a teacher? Don't you dare put them down. I have nothing but respect for the profession, and I think teachers deserve all the help they can get.

As for it not being a 'passion' job currently, that's a rather large generalization to make. I can name plenty of teachers that love what they do. The teacher shortage in Ontario might alert you to the fact that they're trying to recruit MORE teachers, regardless of how passionate they are. Are all bankers passionate about their jobs? what about doctors? please.

Bill 160, which is what Harris instiuted transferred control over educational matters from ELECTED school boards to government officials. It cut down teacher's preperation time (needed, as many of them now prep or mark at home), as well as removed school or board-wide influence on class sizes. What do we have to show for it? My university OAC Englsh class was 38 people. 38. It should have been 25. Don't give me the bullshit that Mike Harris helped education.

Here's a quote for you: Doug Devine, editor of the local Richmond Hill newspaper (25-09-97), summarized the criticisms towards Bill 160 with these words: "So let's recap. The Education Quality Improvement Act will result in fewer teachers teaching more students and fewer subjects in overcrowded schools with less time to prepare, less time to offer remedial help and less money to buy books, supplies and computers. Now, that should put Ontario's education system back on track!"

Bill 160 was essentially a cash grab needed to help the government achieve its tax cut. Bill 160 is just a move toward privatization (which explains why it was supported by richer families and middle class rejecetd it).
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Old 01-10-2006, 09:30 PM   #104
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Walkerton was dealt poorly in media spotlight and really wasn't a government issue as it was a regional issue. And more importantly concerned a lying water inspector.
I'm not saying Walkerton was Harris's fault. I'm critcizing the way he handled it. Walkerton might not have happened had Harris not cut funding to to inspection services....
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Old 01-10-2006, 09:51 PM   #105
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What relevance does that have for now? Do you think thats what will happen?
It's relevant because the construction of standardized tests has not really evolved since the days of the first ones.

Even today, scores are biased in favour of certain groups.

Therefore the tests have deep flaws in them and I really doubt very much that standardized testing has improved our educational system at all.
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