Canada, Mexico, many other countries being snubbed/punished post Iraq by Bush & Co.
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bonoman
Refugee
Once again Sting you come off as what most in the world community think of Americans. Arrogant people.
I know that most are not. But people like you give some the impression that most Americans are.
How can i go on debating something with you when you are being so childish and self centered. And to think i actually thought of you as respectful!
I know that most are not. But people like you give some the impression that most Americans are.
How can i go on debating something with you when you are being so childish and self centered. And to think i actually thought of you as respectful!
Lets take a look at what I said.
"If you and the Canadian people are that desperate to have Bush in your country, then I agree he should get his ass up there. But Canada's level of support for US policy around the world has not been to the level of some other countries. I just find it funny that Canada is so pissed off that, a man that most of them write off as an immuture idiot, has not come to their country yet. The depression and anxiety must be overwhelming regardless of the tradition of state visits in the past"
In the first sentence I go out on a limb and agree that perhaps Bush should go to Canada and that missing the date may have been the wrong thing to do.
In the second sentence I honestly mention that Canada's level of support for the USA has not been as high as some other countries, so Canada should not expect the same red carpet treatment that the UK and Australia, both countries with troops on the ground in Iraq, recieve.
In the third sentence, I go into the fact that many Canadians disagree with the Bush administration on several key foreign policy issues. There are definitely some Canadians who would rather Bush did not come or don't think its a big issue that he has not.
"If you and the Canadian people are that desperate to have Bush in your country, then I agree he should get his ass up there. But Canada's level of support for US policy around the world has not been to the level of some other countries. I just find it funny that Canada is so pissed off that, a man that most of them write off as an immuture idiot, has not come to their country yet. The depression and anxiety must be overwhelming regardless of the tradition of state visits in the past"
In the first sentence I go out on a limb and agree that perhaps Bush should go to Canada and that missing the date may have been the wrong thing to do.
In the second sentence I honestly mention that Canada's level of support for the USA has not been as high as some other countries, so Canada should not expect the same red carpet treatment that the UK and Australia, both countries with troops on the ground in Iraq, recieve.
In the third sentence, I go into the fact that many Canadians disagree with the Bush administration on several key foreign policy issues. There are definitely some Canadians who would rather Bush did not come or don't think its a big issue that he has not.
oops, I just hit the enter button cutting of my posts.
The fourth sentence was probably unnecessary and inflamatory and I'm sorry if it has upset people. I meant it as a joke on the fact that I think(perhaps I am wrong) that most Canadians don't want Bush to come or don't think its a major diplomatic crises that he has not come.
I was origionally just going to stop with the first sentence and say that if Canadian people are this angry about the visit, then its probably a good idea that Bush get up there. Perhaps I should of stopped there.
The fourth sentence was probably unnecessary and inflamatory and I'm sorry if it has upset people. I meant it as a joke on the fact that I think(perhaps I am wrong) that most Canadians don't want Bush to come or don't think its a major diplomatic crises that he has not come.
I was origionally just going to stop with the first sentence and say that if Canadian people are this angry about the visit, then its probably a good idea that Bush get up there. Perhaps I should of stopped there.
OP
OP
Mrs. Edge
Bono's Belly Dancing Friend
Sting, I appreciate what you are saying, but if you had just said it that way in the first place, it would have gone over much better.
Also, no one is saying we want red carpet treatment. Just respect that's all.
Also, no one is saying we want red carpet treatment. Just respect that's all.
oliveu2cm
Rock n' Roll Doggie FOB
Ugh - this issue is embarrassing to me. 
It must be very frustrating for Canadians to support the USA and diplomacy and receive kicks in the teeth for it. It's like having a bossy older brother - you can never win against him.
and if Canada didn't support the USA, all Americans would remember that (and boycott Canadian goods, travel) yet not many Americans understand that our president isn't initially showing respect to Canada- I can't believe he's never been there once! And it's not for patronizing that he has to go- it's out of respect for an ally nation.
It must be very frustrating for Canadians to support the USA and diplomacy and receive kicks in the teeth for it. It's like having a bossy older brother - you can never win against him.
and if Canada didn't support the USA, all Americans would remember that (and boycott Canadian goods, travel) yet not many Americans understand that our president isn't initially showing respect to Canada- I can't believe he's never been there once! And it's not for patronizing that he has to go- it's out of respect for an ally nation.
bonoman
Refugee
STING2 said:
May I,
In your first sentance you say that we are desperate to have Bush come here. Desperate is going a bit far but when we are talking about our biggest friend and most traded with partner i just dont see how its a big deal to come and visit.
Canada's level of support has been up to other countries. You seem to forget that we are fighting the war on terror we have worked closely with the US gov't to tighten the borders and we are supporting you know and would have if it was sanctioned through the UN.
Thrid sentance. Where does it say, anywhere, that most of us write him off as an immature idiot. Even if most of Canada did post him as an immautre idiot he is a immature idiot that rep. your country and should be doing all in his power to reach out and stengthen relationships with his closest friends. Oh and by the way my provience (well Premier) wrote a letter to the US Amb. saying that Alberta supported him and there was many marches supporting America. how many marches do you even see in the states never mind a different country. And to say that most Canadians think that way take a look at your own country. A large portion of the country doesnt even want him as their own.
Yes i shouldnt have wrote this because it was all settled but i feel that you crossed a line.
Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
Don't feel too poorly, all you Canuckys, Bush hasn't come here either, and Johnny Howard and him are best buds. Ha, we just get a patronising acknowledgement every now and then like we are hillbillies from some backwater who get a huge kick out of 'oh, and I'd like to thank Australia as well as the Academy'. Truth probably is, Bush will only ever go where he feels it will serve his interests best.
Bonoman,
Canada is the only one making a big deal about the visit or the lack of one.
I never said Canada was not supporting the USA, I said Canada's support was not equal to a country like the United Kingdom. 50,000 British troops were involved in operation Iraqi Freedom. How many did Canada send?
"how many marches do you even see in the states never mind a different country."
What a joke that statement is. I have been involved in such marches supporting the President and are troops.
As far as what most Americans think, over 80% supported the war in Iraq. President Bush has a 73% approval rating from the American people. See if you can beat that or come close Canada.
I crossed the line? I stated my opinion. I did not personaly attack anyone here unlike what some others have done in the past. If I had a dollar for every statement on a similar level or greater thats been thrown at my country in here, I would have a million dollars. Say something controversial about the United States and you get praised in here. Say something controversial about another country like Canada, and the knives come out.
Canada is the only one making a big deal about the visit or the lack of one.
I never said Canada was not supporting the USA, I said Canada's support was not equal to a country like the United Kingdom. 50,000 British troops were involved in operation Iraqi Freedom. How many did Canada send?
"how many marches do you even see in the states never mind a different country."
What a joke that statement is. I have been involved in such marches supporting the President and are troops.
As far as what most Americans think, over 80% supported the war in Iraq. President Bush has a 73% approval rating from the American people. See if you can beat that or come close Canada.
I crossed the line? I stated my opinion. I did not personaly attack anyone here unlike what some others have done in the past. If I had a dollar for every statement on a similar level or greater thats been thrown at my country in here, I would have a million dollars. Say something controversial about the United States and you get praised in here. Say something controversial about another country like Canada, and the knives come out.
bonoman
Refugee
Well we dont have 50000 troops. Sorry.
You are not critizing my gov't so much as the people of my country, me or anyone that lives here. Because we are not at your beck and call we get punnished?
Because some people dont agree with your President we should be shunned and not recognized?
We are huge parteners and help eachother to a huge degree. That is the only thing that should matter. Not if we didnt send 50000 troops to fight a war. By your standards the only nation that should be visited is the UK. We support the US in many different ways that the UK cannot support you in.
Where did all the flights land when 9/11 happened? Where were Americans and people of the world welcomed and housed, feed, and made feel welcomed. Canada.
I dont care if our countries politicians disagree about everything (remember they are only politicians) our two countries are bound by economics and geograpghy therefore should be treated accordingly.
You are not critizing my gov't so much as the people of my country, me or anyone that lives here. Because we are not at your beck and call we get punnished?
Because some people dont agree with your President we should be shunned and not recognized?
We are huge parteners and help eachother to a huge degree. That is the only thing that should matter. Not if we didnt send 50000 troops to fight a war. By your standards the only nation that should be visited is the UK. We support the US in many different ways that the UK cannot support you in.
Where did all the flights land when 9/11 happened? Where were Americans and people of the world welcomed and housed, feed, and made feel welcomed. Canada.
I dont care if our countries politicians disagree about everything (remember they are only politicians) our two countries are bound by economics and geograpghy therefore should be treated accordingly.
Scarletwine
New Yorker
STING2 said:
It's down to 65% this week. That's a 12 point drop from his high of 77%. Bush senior had a 90 something % and looked what happened to him. This payment to the rich he's making will finish him off.
I'd be glad he wasn't visiting your country. I wish to hell he wasn't in ours.
nbcrusader
Blue Crack Addict
The 65% is the approval rating for Bush's handling of the economy - which is on the rise. Also growing support for tax cuts. Thank God.
bonoman said:
Bush needs his friends to regularly bribe him, otherwise he forgets about them--and then you aren't "with him." Meaning that you are "against him." Meaning that everyone is out to get him. But hey...what an excuse to embroil the U.S. into perpetual conflict, eh? Then he can find another excuse to take a military jet onto an aircraft carrier and put on another pilot costume. After all, it's FUN to play dress-up. He even got to dress-up and pretend to be the President of the United States the other day...
Melon
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neighbours on a collision course
this is a much more complex issue than it appears on the surface.
it is true that canada was their to support the u.s. following 9/11, as the entire world seemingly was. but within our special geographic and historical place, we offered something extra.
we supported the afghan incursion in search of al-quaeda, the taliban and bin-laden. there was some dissension of the concept of attacking a nation for a relative handful of individuals but that was quickly quashed and canadian's were there, some of them for the worse but that comes later.
in spite of all this there was a growing perception that canada and the u.s. were growing further apart. well the truth is we are.
president bush is on the right, much more conservative than canadian's prefer. his continual employment of 'us-against-them'ism certainly doesn't aid the situation.
canada is under rule of a prime minister who is conversely as left as bush is right and presently, as he nears his announced retirement, hell bent on leaving a legacy of canadian values and social successes (for those who don't know, such values don't involve military objectives, far from it in fact). by the same token that bush shouldn't be squaring off with those who don't support all of his military incursions, chretien should be focusing on his own diplomatic skills by controlling the ministers whom he employs. as a small parade of cabinet ministers and backbenchers openly and publicly criticized president bush, chretien stood aside. what he should have done is come down hard on the first one (i believe it was environment minister herb dhaliwal but it might have been back bencher and otherwise nobody from mississauga carolyn parrish) by canning their ass. he didn't, and the white house took note-at least ari fleisher stated they had.
throw in an american ambassador to canada, paul celluci (who is actually a really nice guy), who is all too willing to let canada know what it should be doing and when, some softwood lumber disputes, suggestions canada should give the u.s. access to valuable water, canada's slow but steady lean towards the decriminalization of marijuana, the accidental but altogether neglectful bombing of canadian soldiers aiding in the american bin-laden hunt, a pre-determined race for the reigning and unstoppable canadian leadership party that are the liberals (the candidates, one of whom is a shoe in to win and has been for several years, have sparred over how they would have handled iraq and the consequent american relationship) and years of candians feeling as though they are constantly slighted by their larger, richer neighbours.
and that is all within the past year or two.
no bush shouldn't have cancelled the visit the way he did. but i think canadian's made such an action predictable by their own actions. there was poor diplomacy and management on both sides.
fear not though-the relationship will begin to be mended in just months time when paul martin (finally) becomes prime minister of canada.martin is much more of a right leaning liberal than chretien ever was or will be. he has already pledged to make our national relationship with the u.s. and the personal one between sussex and the white house an objective of his early days in office next february, 2004. should martin somehow lose the leadership race (an unlikely scenario given the groundwork he has been laying for years) the only other candidate with a chance, john manley is largely similar in his ideals, especially his support for america (that is right canadians, sheila copps will not be the next prime minister).
this is a much more complex issue than it appears on the surface.
it is true that canada was their to support the u.s. following 9/11, as the entire world seemingly was. but within our special geographic and historical place, we offered something extra.
we supported the afghan incursion in search of al-quaeda, the taliban and bin-laden. there was some dissension of the concept of attacking a nation for a relative handful of individuals but that was quickly quashed and canadian's were there, some of them for the worse but that comes later.
in spite of all this there was a growing perception that canada and the u.s. were growing further apart. well the truth is we are.
president bush is on the right, much more conservative than canadian's prefer. his continual employment of 'us-against-them'ism certainly doesn't aid the situation.
canada is under rule of a prime minister who is conversely as left as bush is right and presently, as he nears his announced retirement, hell bent on leaving a legacy of canadian values and social successes (for those who don't know, such values don't involve military objectives, far from it in fact). by the same token that bush shouldn't be squaring off with those who don't support all of his military incursions, chretien should be focusing on his own diplomatic skills by controlling the ministers whom he employs. as a small parade of cabinet ministers and backbenchers openly and publicly criticized president bush, chretien stood aside. what he should have done is come down hard on the first one (i believe it was environment minister herb dhaliwal but it might have been back bencher and otherwise nobody from mississauga carolyn parrish) by canning their ass. he didn't, and the white house took note-at least ari fleisher stated they had.
throw in an american ambassador to canada, paul celluci (who is actually a really nice guy), who is all too willing to let canada know what it should be doing and when, some softwood lumber disputes, suggestions canada should give the u.s. access to valuable water, canada's slow but steady lean towards the decriminalization of marijuana, the accidental but altogether neglectful bombing of canadian soldiers aiding in the american bin-laden hunt, a pre-determined race for the reigning and unstoppable canadian leadership party that are the liberals (the candidates, one of whom is a shoe in to win and has been for several years, have sparred over how they would have handled iraq and the consequent american relationship) and years of candians feeling as though they are constantly slighted by their larger, richer neighbours.
and that is all within the past year or two.
no bush shouldn't have cancelled the visit the way he did. but i think canadian's made such an action predictable by their own actions. there was poor diplomacy and management on both sides.
fear not though-the relationship will begin to be mended in just months time when paul martin (finally) becomes prime minister of canada.martin is much more of a right leaning liberal than chretien ever was or will be. he has already pledged to make our national relationship with the u.s. and the personal one between sussex and the white house an objective of his early days in office next february, 2004. should martin somehow lose the leadership race (an unlikely scenario given the groundwork he has been laying for years) the only other candidate with a chance, john manley is largely similar in his ideals, especially his support for america (that is right canadians, sheila copps will not be the next prime minister).
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Moonlit_Angel
Blue Crack Addict
melon said:
Heh, yeah, exactly.
Angela
Bonoman,
"Well we dont have 50000 troops. Sorry."
"You are not critizing my gov't so much as the people of my country, me or anyone that lives here. Because we are not at your beck and call we get punnished?"
Canada should have a military of 140,000!
I was not critical of the Canadian people. I simply suggested that most don't care or don't want Bush to visit because of their political views or because they consider the State Visit as being really for symbolic reasons and there for does not mean much to them.
"We are huge parteners and help eachother to a huge degree. That is the only thing that should matter. Not if we didnt send 50000 troops to fight a war. By your standards the only nation that should be visited is the UK. We support the US in many different ways that the UK cannot support you in."
This war was extremely important to global security and those that fought along side the USA do deserve special recognition.
Just because the President of the USA did not visit Canada does not mean the US government and Canadian government are not working with each other. I don't think anyone cancelled their travel plans to Canada or to the USA. Business continues across the border everyday. Some might say the USA is apart of Canada. Others might say Canada is apart of the USA. Either way, a dispute about a single State Visit is not going to get in the way.
"Well we dont have 50000 troops. Sorry."
"You are not critizing my gov't so much as the people of my country, me or anyone that lives here. Because we are not at your beck and call we get punnished?"
Canada should have a military of 140,000!
I was not critical of the Canadian people. I simply suggested that most don't care or don't want Bush to visit because of their political views or because they consider the State Visit as being really for symbolic reasons and there for does not mean much to them.
"We are huge parteners and help eachother to a huge degree. That is the only thing that should matter. Not if we didnt send 50000 troops to fight a war. By your standards the only nation that should be visited is the UK. We support the US in many different ways that the UK cannot support you in."
This war was extremely important to global security and those that fought along side the USA do deserve special recognition.
Just because the President of the USA did not visit Canada does not mean the US government and Canadian government are not working with each other. I don't think anyone cancelled their travel plans to Canada or to the USA. Business continues across the border everyday. Some might say the USA is apart of Canada. Others might say Canada is apart of the USA. Either way, a dispute about a single State Visit is not going to get in the way.
Scarletwine,
"It's down to 65% this week. That's a 12 point drop from his high of 77%. Bush senior had a 90 something % and looked what happened to him. This payment to the rich he's making will finish him off."
Oh my, its all over now. Republicans should just give the election to Lieberman or Kerry. Not bad choices for the democrats two top candidates. Both supported Bush on Iraq and Lieberman is a big supporter of Israel.
"It's down to 65% this week. That's a 12 point drop from his high of 77%. Bush senior had a 90 something % and looked what happened to him. This payment to the rich he's making will finish him off."
Oh my, its all over now. Republicans should just give the election to Lieberman or Kerry. Not bad choices for the democrats two top candidates. Both supported Bush on Iraq and Lieberman is a big supporter of Israel.
OP
OP
Mrs. Edge
Bono's Belly Dancing Friend
STING2 said:
Now that I have had a moment to take some deep breaths and count to 10......I don't think you even realise it, and would hope you meant it as an offhand compliment, but this is probably singlehandedly the most arrogant statement you have yet made. Yes, we are similar in many ways, (many of those by default as Canadian culture is so overwhelmed by US culture, TV, movies, food etc.) and we are part of the same team as friends and allies, but we are proud of our OWN identity and values.
I doubt any Americans would say they are part of Canada, and I can 100% guarantee you that you will never find ONE SINGLE SOLITARY Canadian that thinks Canada is a part of the USA. For example, try telling the Irish (at least the southern half anyway) that they are part of England and see how well THAT goes over.
This is the same phoneball excuse the Americans gave as to why we weren't mentioned in any of the post 9-11 speeches. Because we are the same as the US. Well we are NOT.
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