Canada

[The Wanderer]

no Scott Stevens or Jason Arnott on the Olympic team???

no wonder you haven't won the gold medal since 1952

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
no Scott Stevens or Jason Arnott on the Olympic team???

no wonder you haven't won the gold medal since 1952

those guys aren't on 'cause we're going with a more offensive team. the ommissions i feel should be there are defencman bryan mccabe and forward joe thornton.

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against smileys

 

[The Wanderer]

yeah, my point exactly

 

[Michael Griffiths]

I think the main reason Canada hasn't won the gold medal since '52 is because only now (starting in '98) are NHL players allowed to participate. For the longest time, the best Canadian players could never play in the olympics, because they were in the NHL. During that time, the Russians (who always had players who were good enough to play in the NHL, but weren't allowed to) could go in and clean house. If the olympic commitee had allowed NHL players back in the 80s, for example, Canada would have cleaned up year after year, after year. With Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Messier, Coffee, Fuhr, Howerchuck, Roy, Anderson, Yzerman, etc, etc, all that their peaks, Canada would have been unstoppable. I mean, Team Canada '87 (Canada Cup) was so strong they actually had to CUT Yzerman and Wendal Clark!! That just tells you something right there. Sorry for the rampage...but just thought that point needed to be clarified.

As for this year's team, at least Bobby Clark isn't in charge...(yeah, let's not give the league's all-time great the "C" just so my own NHL team might benefit from giving it to Lindros. The word insult springs to mind). Hopefully this year they'll actually know who to put in a shootout situation (yeah, let's not make the same mistake again of putting a defensman out there who never gets breakaways, and keeping the all-time goal scorer on the bench. Disgraceful...). Again, I apologize, hehe.

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The Tempest

 

[speedracer]

Originally posted by Michael Griffiths:

As for this year's team, at least Bobby Clark isn't in charge...(yeah, let's not give the league's all-time great the "C" just so my own NHL team might benefit from giving it to Lindros. The word insult springs to mind). Hopefully this year they'll actually know who to put in a shootout situation (yeah, let's not make the same mistake again of putting a defensman out there who never gets breakaways, and keeping the all-time goal scorer on the bench. Disgraceful...). Again, I apologize, hehe.

I thought Dominik Hasek stopped all 5 shots in the shootout against Canada, no?

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Yes, Hasek did stop all 5 shooters. That's my point. If Canada had actually thought about who they wanted to shoot *beforehand*, they might have actaully gotten somewhere. By putting Bourque out on a breakaway shootout, and keeping Gretzky on the bench, they really did themselves no favours.

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The Tempest

 

[speedracer]

Originally posted by Michael Griffiths:
Yes, Hasek did stop all 5 shooters. That's my point. If Canada had actually thought about who they wanted to shoot *beforehand*, they might have actaully gotten somewhere. By putting Bourque out on a breakaway shootout, and keeping Gretzky on the bench, they really did themselves no favours.

Ooh, now you're dissing Boston and the Edge's favorite hockey player. Not cool.

And didn't Wayne Gretzky have a reputation for being a, well, less than stellar penalty shooter?

 

[The Wanderer]

Oh Canada has too many excuses

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
yeah, my point exactly

okay, well if that's your point that's great. the offence is why canada should win the gold this year. curtis joseph is playing better than any other goalie right now and with that combination i think they are gonna win.

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against smileys

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by speedracer:
Ooh, now you're dissing Boston and the Edge's favorite hockey player. Not cool.

And didn't Wayne Gretzky have a reputation for being a, well, less than stellar penalty shooter?

gretzky did have such a reputation yes and the coach's decision was based on who his goalies told him were the best threats on a penalty shot. but i would be very surprised if ray bourque was considered within the top 5 on the team for penalty shots.

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against smileys

 

[speedracer]

Originally posted by kobayashi:
gretzky did have such a reputation yes and the coach's decision was based on who his goalies told him were the best threats on a penalty shot. but i would be very surprised if ray bourque was considered within the top 5 on the team for penalty shots.

Yeah, I suppose.

I think if I were Ray Bourque, I'd just shoot from 40 feet away. Doesn't he always win the accuracy competition at the NHL All-Star skills competition?

 

[The Wanderer]

I have heard all of this before

I hope Canada does win (if the USA doesn't) and I think Canada will win, I just wanted to start shit, and I'm glad Stevens and Arnott arent playing in the Olympics because they need the rest

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
I have heard all of this before

I hope Canada does win (if the USA doesn't) and I think Canada will win, I just wanted to start shit, and I'm glad Stevens and Arnott arent playing in the Olympics because they need the rest

you're right. none of this really matters for another couple of months.
right now it's all 'bout my maple leafs trouncing everyone in the league-look out detroit!

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against smileys

 

[The Wanderer]

how is Mogilny playing? the Devils sure miss him, his abscence has made Scott Gomez virtually ineffective (since he's a playmaker and has no one to set-up anymore)

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Originally posted by speedracer:
And didn't Wayne Gretzky have a reputation for being a, well, less than stellar penalty shooter?

In Gretzky's early years, he used to miss on breakaways all the time, but by the mid 80s he was one of the league's best (you don't score over 70 goals a season -- including scoring 92 and 87 -- for 5 straight years unless you're good on breakaways). I've rarely seen Gretzky miss on breakaways in his later years (in fact, he barely got breakaways in his years with the Rangers at the end of his career, but when he did he scored almost everytime).

But that's not the point here, anyway. The point is, the shootout is a clutch situation, and there has never been a better clutch player than Gretzky. He's always pulled the rabbit out of the hat when he's had to -- given the opportunity. It's too bad he was denied the opportunity in '98, because I truly believe he would have pulled the rabbit out of the hat -- again.

As for Mogilney, I have no idea how he's doing. I haven't really followed hockey this year (don't have cable right now). I believe he was way better on the Devils, though. Too bad to hear about Gomez. That kid is a pretty incredible hockey player.


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The Tempest

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
how is Mogilny playing? the Devils sure miss him, his abscence has made Scott Gomez virtually ineffective (since he's a playmaker and has no one to set-up anymore)

mogilny is still going on the same streaks that he always had-4 goals in the first 2 games, 1 goal for the next 15, so and so forth. right now though he is definetely hot, i think coming in to tonight he had like 6 or 7 points in the past 2 games and he got one tonight. he and sundin have sparked the leafs powerplay and his line with tucker and corson is beginning to play well.

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against smileys

 

[The Wanderer]

well Toronto is like the rest of Canada, useless when it counts (think Game 6 in 2000 and 7 in 2001 against the Devils; also WWI & WWII), so Comrade Mogilny fits right in!

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Well, as for world wars, they're all pretty useless aren't they?

As for Canada, the Stanley Cup has been won by more Canadian teams than American, I believe. Can anyone verify this? Besides, Canadian players make up the largest percentage on EVERY team, so it's really a mute point. But, yes, Wanderer, I know you're only trying to stir up shit...

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The Tempest

 

[The Wanderer]

Canada plays the US for the Stanley Cup??? so you think that World War II was useless?

 

[Michael Griffiths]

No, of course Canada doesn't play the U.S. for the cup. I was just alluding to your statement that Toronto is useless just like the rest of Canada when it comes to winning big games. Here's what you said:

well Toronto is like the rest of Canada, useless when it counts (think Game 6 in 2000 and 7 in 2001 against the Devils; also WWI & WWII), so Comrade Mogilny fits right in!

So, if you're talking hockey, you can see why I thought you were talking about Canadian hockey teams (you did, afterall, bring up the Toronto Maple Leafs). I thought you were saying Toronto chokes just like all Canadian teams do. Anyway...as for world war I and II being useless, I meant that war as a concept is useless, and I can't go back and rewrite history, so I must accept that history as a part of reality. Was it useless as a concept? Yes.

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The Tempest

[This message has been edited by Michael Griffiths (edited 12-15-2001).]

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by Michael Griffiths:

As for Canada, the Stanley Cup has been won by more Canadian teams than American, I believe. Can anyone verify this?

well the habs have 24, i think, the leafs with 13, edmonton with 5(or is it 4?) and calgary has 1. all that is for the most part NHL era and if you wanna go before that i believe it was almost entirely canadian teams winning it-so yes i woulld say more canadian based teams have won the cup, but what does that prove?

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against smileys

 

[Michael Griffiths]

It's not supposed to prove much of anything, except to say that not all Canadian teams choke in the playoffs, like I thought Wanderer had implied...

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The Tempest

 

[The Wanderer]

well let's hope Edmonton doesnt move to Mexico (though that might please Diego & Julie, I doubt it would please many hockey purists)

Montreal has only won 23 Stanley Cups, and no Canadian-based teams have won the Cup this century

exactly when was the last time a team from Canada won the Cup???

as for Canada Cup, remember in 95 when the US spanked Canada with all the NHLers playing?

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Hmmm, can you say high stick goal scored by Brett Hull? Oh, and isn't Hull actually Canadian, but has duel citizenship, so he decided to play for the USA? Yeah...

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The Tempest

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Actually, Montreal has won 24 cups, and the last one was in '93. As for Canada having difficulty competing in today's market, that's what million dollar salaries do: they hurt Canadian teams. It's difficult for Canadian teams to be nearly as competitive in today's NHL market. And Gretzky did have a lot to do with it when he was SOLD to the KIngs.

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The Tempest

 

[The Wanderer]

actually Edmonton got Calder Winner Jimmy Carson (50 goals as a rookie) for Gretzky, and Montreal officially has 23 Stanley Cups according to the NHL (1st one before NHL formation doesnt count)

anyway, maybe if Canadian players werent so greedy, there would be a salary cap in place and Canadian-based teams could be more competitive (though Toronto never had any trouble spending the big $$$ on free agents, and we were talking about Toronto first and foremost)

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Do you think Jimmy Carson was really the focal point of that "trade"? See, I've always thought that it was the $15 million (US) that made that deal...

Regarding the 24 Stanley Cups, that first one was, technically, still a Stanley Cup, wasn't it? It just wasn't won in the NHL. Details, details...

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The Tempest

 

[The Wanderer]

of course he wasnt, but there was only room for one Carson in LA...

and i mispoke, Robitaile won the Calder that year, yet Hextall won the Vezina and Conn Smythe

best team ever, in my opinion, those Oilers of the mid 80s (Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Tikannen, Coffey, Fuhr, etc)

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Actually, if you want to get really technical, if we're talking '88 -- the year of the Gretzky trade -- it was actually Gretzky who won the Conn Smythe as playoff MVP (they beat Boston in 4 games). Hextall won the Smythe in '87, even though the Oilers beat Philly in 7. If it weren't for Hextall that season, the Oilers would have won in 4 straight.

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The Tempest

 

[Michael Griffiths]

Sorry, this is my last post (I really must go to bed)! As for the salary cap idea, it would never work unless it was for the entire NHL, as players would do their best to play in the US. Then you'd really have no competition left. I do agree with you that hockey players (Canadian or otherwise) are extremely greedy. Many (not all) are also spoiled rich kids. I see many of them at work everyday, and theres this attitude that they generally have. I hope Donald Brashear isn't a U2 fan, because if he reads this, I'm toast! (Now there's a phrase I haven't used since high school...)

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The Tempest