can your brain create a new normal??

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dutchfan

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That is the question i am wondering about....

Watching the tsunami i heard a doctor say that he was the first couple of days in shock and later ate a sandwich in between post mortums on the scene.

For me absolutely unthinkable as i saw the footage, from my living room gasping for breath while thinking of the small and the scene in general.

The things the soldiers did in those prisons: unthinkable for me. But maybe you become numb.....and create a new normal.

Also the soldiers in Sebrenica giving children toxid stuff to make a fire as candy and had a laugh....

Just three examples how normal people in extreme circumstances do crazy and unthinkable things.

I would like your opinion on this.

Does the human brain say its ok because there is a new normal? What creates this new normal if there is one?
Or do you think there is something els going on??
Does everybody has this "other side" and is it the same energy that a person gets that makes him of her do great things but yet unthinkable heroic??
 
I don't know about creating a new normal, but people in disasters have to detatch somehow in order to keep functioning.

As for people who do horrible things- people have an endless capacity for denial and for lying to themselves, for rationalizing their behavior and for avoiding personal responsibility.
 
Humans have the tendency to habituate to their circumstances. People who have horrific events happen to them, or receive devestating news are often able, after a period of adjustment, to go on relatively normally with their daily lives. Similarily, people who receive great news, or have happy events happen to them do not walk around in a state of elation forever. The elation wears off, and they go back to a more baseline level of mood.

There are exceptions to this, however. For instance, some people who experience tragic events go on to deal with PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder), or other difficulties.
 
You have to have a predisposition to get PTSD. One of my great-uncles had it. Back in the '20's, he shot first his wife, and then himself. He'd been in WWI. I didn't know anything about it until I found a newspaper clipping that my family kept years later.
 
Americans, in the larger scheme of things, are extremely pampered, which is why I chuckle when I hear about the latest outrage over violent movies or video games. We've been extremely lucky for a very long time, which is why I think a lot of the world wasn't willing to give us a whole lot of sympathy over 9/11. It's not because it wasn't a horrible event; it's just that it pales in comparison to what a lot of people in other nations have had to deal with over the last century.

Melon
 
A friend of mine from Belfast is absolutely confounded by the whole effect of 9/11 on American politics. Not that he doesn't consider that a tragedy, but look at the :censored: people in Belfast have been through all these years. It makes us look very pampered indeed.
 
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MrsSpringsteen said:
I don't know about creating a new normal, but people in disasters have to detatch somehow in order to keep functioning.

As for people who do horrible things- people have an endless capacity for denial and for lying to themselves, for rationalizing their behavior and for avoiding personal responsibility.


I couldn't imagine a better explanation than that.

For Dutchfan's first example, I think that the mind will do almost anything to maintain its emotional and psychological survival even more so than its physical survival. The doctor eating the sandwich between postmoderns was just experiencing an automatic switchoff, the mind unable to take in any more horror and just accepting it as the norm for now to survive. The mind hardens to function, to survive.

The other examples involve something more. To do something like that requires you to almost deliberately turn your back on everything you have been taught is human, requires you to look at the victims as something other, something not quite human. Something twisted and unnecessary for emotional survival, indicating either a very weak personality who will follow whoever the strongest or a sickness of soul suddenly allowed to do what it has wanted to, thinking that there is no accountability. Or the old saying that you can really only judge character when you see what someone does when they think no one is watching.
 
BonosSaint said:



The other examples involve something more. To do something like that requires you to almost deliberately turn your back on everything you have been taught is human, requires you to look at the victims as something other, something not quite human. Something twisted and unnecessary for emotional survival, indicating either a very weak personality who will follow whoever the strongest or a sickness of soul suddenly allowed to do what it has wanted to, thinking that there is no accountability. Or the old saying that you can really only judge character when you see what someone does when they think no one is watching.

In some situations, that's not entirely true. Ordinary people can commit acts of cruelty to others quite easily, under certain circumstances. Milgram's famous 1963 study of obedience showed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

In designing this study, he had in mind the atrocities committed by Nazi soldiers. The results are startling.
 
This is hard to explain, but I can add some personal input.

I don't think it's so much detachment from the situation that's going on around you. It is to an extent. But for example, when you live in a war zone, people forget that life during war is a lot like life during peacetime. You still have to eat, you still have to sleep, you still manage to laugh with other people, you cry probably more, etc. In a way, those mundane things continue, except under extreme amounts of stress and of course, the possibility of death. But when you are experiencing it, you don't think "how will I ever make it?" Those thoughts come later, after you've survived and you look back and wonder how it was possible to have made it. During the actual event, it's survival of the fittest, and life goes on, not pleasant life, but life nonetheless. When a bomb falls, it's only strange to hear it in the beginning. Months or years later, it's background noise.
 
VintagePunk said:


In some situations, that's not entirely true. Ordinary people can commit acts of cruelty to others quite easily, under certain circumstances. Milgram's famous 1963 study of obedience showed this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

In designing this study, he had in mind the atrocities committed by Nazi soldiers. The results are startling.


I agree. That's why I also added the example of following the strongest personality as being one of the possible reasons, which is in line with obedience. I was just differentiating between what would be the reasonable behavior of the doctor who ate a sandwich and the cruelties perpetrated by the others.
That being said there are cruel people who are allowed to act on those cruelties in extreme situations that they would not be allowed to in others.

That being said, I think given the right circumstances most people are capable of most things--horrific and heroic.
 
The brain can create a new normal as it is a dynamic system, the most of men can probably face short term shock events - how they react though and how the memories are processed long term is different.

When the going get's tough the tough get going.

The question I suppose is how much it takes for us to crack, single one off freak events like a car crash or being right there during a stabbing can be dealt with - but dealing with a sustained events, thats where the lines really get drawn.
 
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Thank you all for your serious responses. I appriciate that a lot.

Not lived through major disasters or heroic events the image of the doctor eating is sometimes lively in my mind.

Wether you call it a new normal of ptsd or survival......its seem clear reading your comments that something happens in your brain (or whole being).

My next question is: can you go back to "normal" ones you have been in this position?

for people living in a warzone i guess it is life as usual but very different. Just as anitram says. My uncle told me that in ww2 the planes over Holland where very loud the first couple of night, and indeed a familiar background some nights later. My families lived where with blinded windows, not enough food, not enough heating and so on. Germans soldiers giving food and other bulliing them, so you didnot know who to trust. The fear of the older uncles to be deported to work in Germany. Living as a family in a war is i guess somethings different than being away from your family in a war, or after a disaster....or am i seeing that wrong??
 
BonosSaint said:


That being said, I think given the right circumstances most people are capable of most things--horrific and heroic.

I completely agree. Most people underestimate the impact that situations have on their behaviour, believing instead that their behaviour is more consistent across varying situations.
 
I think because of what extremeties we are exposed on TV and other mediums make us immune to it
I don't think the brain shifts to a new norm when its experiences it is how you deal and react to situations and it can vary across the spectrum for people
 
Originally posted by VintagePunk
Originally posted by BonosSaint
That being said, I think given the right circumstances most people are capable of most things--horrific and heroic.
I completely agree. Most people underestimate the impact that situations have on their behaviour, believing instead that their behaviour is more consistent across varying situations.

:up:
 
dutchfan said:
My next question is: can you go back to "normal" ones you have been in this position?
While I can't speak to this from my own experience, and am not sure what follows really addresses what you seek to understand, I can offer a few things I've surmised about the difficult choices and compromises involved in "going back to normal" from growing up with two Holocaust survivors for parents. Keep in mind, though, there's no way for me to really know what was "normal" for them psychologically before this experience--and even if I did, I'm not sure how relevant it would be, given the very different version of "going back to normal" a hypothetical unaffected person might have experienced after going through some of the less direct consequences of that upheaval (e.g. less-than-willing emigration to a strange new place and culture, having to start over from scratch on making a home and a living, etc.).

Some of the things I've seen in my parents, and that many psychologists have noted in treating not only Holocaust survivors but other people with PTSD, etc., include:

--Repeated bouts of deep depression and/or anxiety. For some, this comes as an extension of all the numbing and shutting-down they instinctively learned to do when in crisis; for others, it can spring from pained awareness of their own inability to respond properly and proportionately to the more everyday crises life keeps throwing your way in the aftermath. Many psychologists have noted that the type of depression characteristic of PTSD and Holocaust-survivor patients differs strikingly from typical depression in that it is often associated with an increase in belligerent, irrationally persistent behavior--and, this, too, probably grows out of having learnt that as a survival skill.
--A grievance over, and sense of having been cheated out of, one's ability to mourn for who and what was lost in a "normal," healthy manner. When my father died, I was able to mourn for him in "normal" fashion, because we hadn't lost him to anything world-invertingly horrific or unspeakable--just plain old bad medical luck. He, however, never had the luxury of mourning in this way for his own parents, siblings, extended family and friends whom he saw gassed, shot, beaten or starved to death.
--Persistent feelings of alienation and isolation from the social world around you, even after "successful" re-integration is achieved. In part, this is a consequence of having been too overwhelmed at the time to cope with the bewildering array of (unhelpful) responses from your new fellow citizens towards you and the stigmatized identity you embody for them: avoidance, pity, fear, etc.
--Chronic bouts with disabling feelings of vulnerability, distrust, paranoia, etc. that are all out of proportion to what you are actually experiencing now. Most often, of course, these feelings are directed towards other people, but they can also manifest as reactions to sounds, smells, etc. My mother is hysterically afraid of dogs to this day because she saw a group of children she didn't know torn apart by a pack of them in the camps, and for whatever reason, this memory affected her more profoundly than many others that might otherwise seem more horrific.
--Inability to derive normal satisfaction from one's accomplishments despite relentless determination to succeed. Both my parents, upon emigrating here, threw themselves into education, charity, the civil rights movement, and other forms of community service and social engagement with a passion; and both of them saw this as, among other things, a way of fighting the temptation to give in to helplessness, insularity, and loss of faith in the value of social progress towards the greater good. But none of this was ever enough to enable them to surmount their feelings of...
--...Survivor guilt. If I had to identify any one from this list of obstacles to "creating a new normal" as the most costly, pernicious, and painful for children of survivors to watch, I think it would be this. And this, too, can be understood as a defensive reaction--against succumbing to feelings of powerlessness or ungrounded hysteria: when there's someone immediately present to blame, that at least gives you some kind of foothold, however much of a devil's pact it is.

And a final item, following up on anitram's experience: I remember one occasion, a family discussion about a troubled schoolmate whose family had survived Cambodia's killing fields in the late '70s, where one of my brothers offhandedly commented on how people who have survived such traumas are often "like zombies," struggling to relearn to function morally and socially after having "suspended" all such thinking during their trauma. My father immediately rebuked him, and said that this stereotype was never really true--that while people living through large-scale trauma and upheaval do engage in some numbing, yes, and do often fail to live up to whatever previously held moral or social convictions they might have managed to observe even under those circumstances, that does not mean that all moral and social thinking or feeling has been suspended. "You can no more turn off that need than you can turn off your need to sleep or eat," he said; "it's just part of being human, and it will follow you through everything you live through, whether you want it or not." I think he was saying that whatever moral and psychological warping people who've lived through trauma must contend with is not the result of having "shut down," but more of having failed to do that--with resulting permanent changes to their inner compass. You can't "go home again," but neither can you start from scratch on a new home...because so much of the wreckage from the old one rides with you into the new; it never really left, after all, because it lives on inside you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It feels very strange, and in some ways deeply wrong, to me to lay all this out in such an objective, quasi-clinical way. I really wish I could put it all in some nicely lyrical, personal-testimony sort of fashion. Maybe someday I'll be able to do that, I don't know. Analyzing consequences is very different from coming to terms with them and the next generation (i.e. me) has their own mountain of baggage to contend with rising above all the unbridgeable silences and gulfs in understanding involved.

I do believe that "a new normal" can be created, because I've seen it happen. But I also suspect that in *some* ways, the whole premise of this question may be faulty, because it implies that you can draw a clean line between the situations people find themselves in--which often hinge on contingencies that can change overnight--and the actual people involved, whose selves are ongoing, cumulative, and not amenable to convenient rearrangement. For better and for worse.
 
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yolland said:

--Persistent feelings of alienation and isolation from the social world around you, even after "successful" re-integration is achieved. In part, this is a consequence of having been too overwhelmed at the time to cope with the bewildering array of (unhelpful) responses from your new fellow citizens towards you and the stigmatized identity you embody for them: avoidance, pity, fear, etc.

I think of all the things you wrote, this rings the most true.

When these sorts of traumatic events end, you are either dead, or you've survived. In the latter case, you have to be re-integrated into society and this is incredibly difficult. It involves getting up every day and having to function in a world where almost nobody else understands you or what you've been through, and you have to adjust to them, not the other way around. You have to adjust to the mundane way of life again, going to work or school, paying bills, having a mortgage, caring about shoe sales. All those things you did before without thinking but now they're somehow foreign to you.

And a lot of this also involves needing to let go of any anger and bitterness, because you really have to rise above yourself and elect to be human and humane. Sometimes I think that personality has a lot more to do with this than anything, because I know people who went through very similar or even almost identical experiences, even ones who suffered them together, and yet you have one person who managed to cope considerably better after it was over.

If anyone's ever read Viktor Frankl's "Man's Search for Meaning" - there was a passage towards the end where he said that he never bothered talking about his experiences in Auschwitz because the people who experienced it with him, he didn't have to say a thing, they just understood. And the people who didn't go through that could never possibly understand anyway, so he didn't bother. That's the sort of world you end up functioning in, I think.
 
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